On The Edge
The Edge annual question 2008 is 'What have you changed your mind about?' and Sean over at CV summarized some of the answers for the average blogger's short attention span (try to recall the title of this post). I find it a tough question, given that I change my mind constantly about a lot of things. I also change my mind about whether I should consider this mental flexibility (better days), immaturity (worse days), or irrelevant (most days).
Either way, this reminded me that I promised previously to answer The Edge 2006 question 'What is your most dangerous idea?' (seems I missed out on 2007?). I said then I'd write this post when I'm in a particularly cynical mood, so therefore the parental advisory banner. There's no cursing here, and no discussion of my sexual preferences, just a pessimistic world view. Since I'm all for economic writing this is a read one get two, and I'll take care of '06 and '08 together: My most dangerous idea is that mankind is running into a downward spiral of reinforced constant unhappiness, and I've changed my mind about whether this is a realistic scenario or not. Though I've changed my mind back and forth about this a couple of times currently the status is back to disaster.
The point is simple. Intelligence is no longer an evolutionary advantage if the content of thought becomes increasingly abstract and theoretical. Our societies get more and more complex, and desperately need intellectuals, scientists, and thinkers to help them find their way in a world that's getting increasingly confusing every day. Yet, our societies don't listen to these voices, politics refutes any scientific method, leaders repeat mistakes, ignore warnings, and stick to believes that are scientifically wrong. It's a problem that has been around since thousands of years, but it is a problem that can be ignored for a long time - as long as trial an error works fast enough. Unfortunately though, the tolerance for mistakes gets smaller every year, and the consequences of mistakes larger.
The saddest example is maybe the present global warming discussion. All these political problems, the fact that capitalism alone fails to protect common goods, these have been discussed already decades ago. It is quite ironic to me, reading as news what we have been taught at school. May it be about the best way to provide incentives, saving energy, or reducing garbage. The climate change and energy shortening issue has been around since at least the Club of Rome report '72. It was the time of Greenpeace, remember that? Jute statt Plastik?
The energy problems I consider the much worse part because it will hit rather suddenly, yet despite all the hot air nobody actually does something about it. The obvious way out if oil gets short is power from nuclear fission. Face it - and think about that this will be a global problem. How many nations do you want to have in this world experimenting with their first nuclear fission reactors? We have, for better or worse, a global economy, but no global political system. It's a small wonder negotiations fail as long as the global marketplace has no balance in a political decision making process. And that's not a particularly new insight either. But hey, liberalism is still en vogue, lets wait some more decades.
I've been around in the blogosphere for long enough to realize that a significant fraction of our readers will now grind their teeth and say, girl stick to physics, you don't know nothing. Another part will think, gag, she shouldn't. And that brings me to the reason why I changed my mind about whether we will be able to resolve the present problems in a timely manner.
It seems I constantly hear people who don't know nothing about political systems, but are completely convinced their own is the best, and everything else is worse. I constantly hear people who don't know nothing about economical systems but are completely convinced their own is the best, and everything else is worse. And why so? Because they've been told so since the day they were born. And apparently that mode of thinking - which every serious scientist would immediately reject - is completely appropriate when it comes to political questions, never mind that a significant part of them can be addressed scientifically as well. And here we have it again, that gap between natural and social sciences, that gap between politics and our intellectual elite. A lack of communication, paired with increasing specialization, resulting in a society that doesn't listen to its thinkers. Hey, it's only a theory.
And that is what worries me. Not that other people's opinions might differ from mine, but that they are neither willing nor able to ask whether what they've been told is true, or still true. And they live very well with their ignorance that unfortunately reflects in the management of our societies. It's the way discussions are lead, the absence of scientific argumentation, the emphasis on advertisement over reason, rethorics over content, our inability to learn, that's what worries me.
A society that doesn't listen to its thinkers in times like this is a society that is destined to fail.
Our evolutionary developed mechanisms to improve 'fitness' of the human race don't work when we don't experience the consequences of our doing, or in an environment that changes too rapidly, too globally, too detached from our senses. And it's us who we change our world too fast to actually adapt to it, too fast so we can't accurately rate and act on the consequences. We just can't rely on our intuition in many regards, because our brains were never meant to deal with such situations.
Who cares if company X exploits underaged workers on the other side of the world, if their products are cheap and look nice. If you want consumers to change their mind, tell them the story of H. (name changed), with plenty photos of malnourished and sick children. That's the way the human brain works, and that's the game we play today.
So, we have an obvious tension between the immediate short-term goals that our neurons award with gratification (a personal masseur? fame? cigarette break?) and the problems that are either spatially or temporarily distant and get neglected.
What we have done to make our societies function efficiently in such a rapidly changing environment is we implemented fast working feedback mechanisms quite similarly to evolution, call it the survival of the fittest company, or idea. This works quite well to direct a fairly complex system towards optimization, allows capital to be invested into further development which is to the benefit of everybody. But then we forget that it was us who set up these mechanisms in the first place, for our own well-being, and that we might have to readjust them from time to time, asking whether they still do what we want them to do.
Now, we are living in a society where making money has become a self-purposeful action, where it should instead be a feedback mechanism to direct the economy. I am not against capitalism - it works well in many regards, and as long as improving the circumstances of living is correlated with economical growth of some kind, it is a good tool. But this correlation has its limitation, and the more advanced societies have reached them. Do I really have to tell you that money doesn't equal happiness? How many people are there today selling stuff they know is crap? How many of the pills advertised to make you younger, slimmer, more attractive are just wasting your time and potentially your money? How many advertisements are just blatant lies, but 100% guaranteed?
How many people spend their day trying to find a smart way to rip you off...
... and they will actually argue they make our lives better because it's good for the economy? Never mind that energy and resources are wasted into producing crap if one just adds enough
psychologists for an irresistible advertisement. That's what I mean with reinforced unhappiness: The presently realized 'optimization' process blindly lead towards economical growth, on the possible expenses of the quality of humans living in that environment because not all factors are appropriately weighted by monetary value. Look at your leaders who talk about the economy, the economy, the economy all the time (unless they are busy talking about religion that is). What they should be talking about are their people first place. And then in the second place how the economy can be used to make our lives better (and they shouldn't be talking about religion at all). Capitalism, operation for profit, and market economy are tools. Useful tools, but as all tools they have a range where they can be applied, and others where they are inappropriate.
Sadly, nothing of what I've just said is new in any regard. If you want to measure the status of happiness in your society, look at the amount of people who need anti-depressants to get through their days because the quality of their living has so tremendously improved. It's a combination of feeling 'unfit' for the environment, amplified by the hopelessness that comes from believing they can't change anything about it - neither themselves, nor the external circumstances. We have changed our environment so much that we ourselves no longer 'fit', and are unable to resolve the mismatch.
You might notice the reasoning is similar to that of my earlier post on the Marketplace of Ideas, where I wrote about the gap between primary goals and secondary criteria. Secondary criteria are handy quantities to measure success, and optimizing them provides a sensible mechanism towards improvement possibly for a long time. The danger though is that fulfilling the secondary criteria becomes a self-purposeful action, and their optimization is pursued even though it is not the actual goal. Here it is making money (secondary criteria) that is confused with improving quality of living (primary goal). In the scientific community there's a bunch of criteria like number of publications, potential to obtain grants, being in fashion, connections in the community (secondary criteria) that are being confused with good research (primary goal).
Want more examples where people loose their primary goals out of sight for the immediate reward? Look at a couple of science blogs with advertisement banners. Meant to promote scientific knowledge, their websites also feature advertisements for crackpottery, intelligent design, the new quantum mechanics or other metaphysics. Sure I understand it's nice to make money. Know your priorities.
So to end with, why is this dangerous? Well, when I read the book 'What is your most dangerous idea?' I was wondering what actually is 'dangerous'. It crossed my mind that one could destroy the planet, or maybe the whole universe (yeah). But actually, I think suffering is worse than dying, so the most dangerous idea seemed to me that we can maneuver our society into a state of constant unhappiness because we're too stupid to correct our actions, and find the way out. Like the fly in your room that constantly bumps against the glass, yet is unable to learn from its mistakes. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Actually, I think The Edge is one of the little efforts into the right direction, providing a forum for your societies' intellectuals to reach the public, as well as a possibility to bridge the communication gap that has developed between scientists of various disciplines. Let's hope enough people listen.
I just looked up the 2007 question. It was 'What are you optimistic about?' Ah well, I will come back to this when I have a better day.
Labels: Random Thoughts
103 Comments:
Bee
Are you absolutely certain that European nations achieved a high standard of living by following a capitalist-the pure form- blueprint? I believe the opposite is true. Violation of free market principles seems to have been the norm(and still is.)
I can only comment from the perpsective of an American. I believe that Americans just aren't interested in thinking deeply about things.
People who aren't experiencing acute economic insecurity have no reason to challenge the status quo. Then there are the Americans who are experiencing various degrees od economic insecurity. What passess for a middle class in America these days lives only a few pay checks from the street. For these Americans space in the brain that should be taken up with thinking deply about the great issues of the day is devoted to constant worrying.
I saw on the science channel last that WE will have a near miss in 2029. If the meteor passess through the keyhole,with 100 percent certainty,in 2036, kiss our collective (fat)ass good-bye. Among other things, I'm worried about this. Mostof my neighbors strain brain neurons worrying about the NY Yankess. I hope WE are not a doomed species
Joshua Chamberlain(deceased)
Bee
Are you absolutely certain that European nations achieved a high standard of living by following a capitalist-the pure form- blueprint?
Certainly not, and I am perfectly sure I never said that.
Feynman: This unscientific age...
Rambling on:
But yeah, I think, when too much depressed by this, it helps to take a step back, we only emerged from superstition a few centuries ago, the great struggle of enlightenment is far from over, and we are a part of it.
The gloom will not come to pass, not because the thinkers will suddenly seize power and start to right things but because at crucial moments the thinkers ARE heard.
"The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe." - Albert Einstein
And yet the nuclear holocaust did not come to pass. Nor were the issues that enabled it resolved. We coped somehow in our very stupid human ways and wriggled through.
Above all we can not allow us the luxury of despair, we need to stay relentlessly positive.
England is different from the US, but the thing that bugs me the most here is the lack of anything resembling public discourse. Of a culture that values its intellectuals. The edge is great for science but undervalues the humanities IMO, and furthermore it is guilty of that very thing: accepting the culture of soundbites over deep thinking and contemplation and trying to reformat the results of deep thinking and contemplation into the form of soundbites instead of trying to create a better, wider, more human culture.
Still its a(nother) start.
We did not begin this, we are not going to finish this, but what we write, discuss and think today will be the foundation for what will be tomorrow, and thus we will have played our part. Which always was all that we could do...
"A society that doesn't listen to its thinkers in times like this is a society that is destined to fail."
Well, frankly I think that society doesn't listen to its thinkers because it has come to believe that "thinkers" are just another pressure group who manipulate their "thinking" in order to further their own special interests. And the blame for this lies almost entirely with the "thinkers" themselves.
I agree that money doesn't buy happiness [though my new car does actually make me happier, maybe I am just not thinking hard enough.....]. This is however irrelevant. Money may not buy happiness, but poverty nearly always *does* buy unhappiness. Capitalism offers poor people a way out of poverty, and that is the source of its irresistible power. Whether we like it or not.
Reminds me of what I've read yesterday, Leon Lederman answering The Edge's question:
We need to elect people who can think critically. A Congress which is overwhelmingly dominated by lawyers and MBAs makes no sense in this 21st century in which almost all issues have a science and technology aspect. We need a national movement to seek out scientists and engineers who have demonstrated the required management and communication skills. And we need a strong consensus of mentors that the need for wisdom and knowledge in the Congress must have a huge priority.
Let's hope there is a chance...
Hi Joshua:
Are you referring to Apophis? It is of course true that people who are not experiencing acute existential pressure have little reason to question the status quo. What I find worrisome though is that esp. in the USA even those who have this reason defend the status quo. You say For these Americans space in the brain that should be taken up with thinking deply about the great issues of the day is devoted to constant worrying. - that's what societies used to have their intellectuals for, to provide a voice, to show a direction for those who don't have the time to think about the issues besides noticing that it doesn't work the way it is.
I believe that Americans just aren't interested in thinking deeply about things.
I don't think Americans are so much different in this behalf from citizens of other nations. I don't expect everybody to constantly think about every aspect of our living - if that was the case our society would be pretty much dysfunctional. The problem I see is the trend to ignore those who take the time to do this thinking, instead of listening to them.
Hi Frank,
Above all we can not allow us the luxury of despair, we need to stay relentlessly positive.
There is a line between optimism and denial.
We coped somehow in our very stupid human ways and wriggled through.
There is no reason to rely on things working out somehow, just because they have so far always worked out somehow. There is a timescale we need to solve problems, and there is a time scale in which we create problems. The human brain hasn't changed all that much, the time to find smart solutions to our problems and to realize them is set by the capability of our mind, whereas we are creating more and more problems, that need to be solved faster. It is only a question of time until we won't be able to cope any longer, unless we slow things down.
I find the argument it will all work out nice and comforting, but it completely ignores the fact that times are changing. As I wrote above, we have altered our environment faster than we can adapt to it. If we don't redirect this trend, we will run against a wall.
I agree that the humanistics are underrepresented at the Edge, which is too bad.
Best,
B.
Hi Other,
I worded carefully "money doesn't equal happiness". I know a lot of people who would agree that more money would make them happier, and I too would say if I didn't have to worry about how I pay my flights to Europe and back, my life would be much nicer. What I meant to express is that this correlation which works in a certain range is not an equality, and one shouldn't forget what it is we actually strive for.
Well, frankly I think that society doesn't listen to its thinkers because it has come to believe that "thinkers" are just another pressure group who manipulate their "thinking" in order to further their own special interests. And the blame for this lies almost entirely with the "thinkers" themselves.
That might actually be true. The problem is that people have started believing everybody acts only to pursue his or her own interest, which is a very sad side effect of a society that values competition over solidarity, and promotes the story of you-can-do-it-if-you-only-try-hard-enough, and if you don't make it it's entirely your fault.
I wouldn't go so far as Plato to say the philosophers should be kings - in fact I've come to believe charismatic leadership is a necessary and useful device (something else that I've changed my mind about) - but definitely politicians prime interest shouldn't be their own, and I would really like to see some 'wisdom lovers' that could make it through the election process. It's those people that we should be looking for, not those who have sufficient money for an election campaign. But where is their place today?
Best,
B.
Hi Anonymous:
Yeah, one shouldn't give up on them. I guess the actual reason why I've changed my mind about the question of whether or not we'll be able to resolve our problems in a timely manner is moving to Canada. Because, well, these Americans they have a huge potential for rapid and extreme changes, and can make you believe they will be able to cope with every problem. Oh, sorry, it's a challenge, not a problem ;-) Either way, it all builds up on facing reality, so that would be a good starting point.
Best,
B.
Some people genuinely enjoy the sadistic pleasure of seeing other people suffer and fail. One moderate form of this is "schadenfreude". For many people, they like to feel superior over other people in a particular criteria.
Happiness likely has genetic components. A lot of work has gone into quantifying what exactly we mean with emotions in the last 10 years or so.
There was that recent work that implied the state of happiness was relatively fixed per individual. You could fluctuate over and under depending on circumstances, but invariably you fall back into your natural zone over time.
This also implied money, political systems and things like that shouldn't correlate too strongly with happiness.
~Haelfix
The point wasn't to be nice and comforting. I merely meant to point out how a realistic solution can look, IF we manage to find it.
If we manage to find it, it will have been because the thinkers pushed as hard as they could (and we've seen that over the last years, the message greenpeace and others have been pushing for, for decades has come through, action is still far away, but all of a sudden no one shrugs their shoulders at those crazy tree-huggers anymore).
So rather then be comforted, consider it me joining into your battle cry.
BTW, the rate at which problems appear is also set by our minds, isn't it?
Dear Bee,
We share many of the same concerns and ideas. I too am naturally a pessimist and at least once a week am grateful that I will likely not live long enough to see the horrors to come.
On the other hand, sitting here in India where there has been so much change in the last 20 years, I cannot but feel that somehow ideas get through.
One very (scary) case of ideas reaching fruition is the current neocon nightmare in the US - the political situation is a working out of the ideas that gained currency in the 80s and 90s. So I cannot help but feel that good ideas will work themselves out too.
Best,
-Arun
Bee
Yes Bee, Apophis.
Other said
Do you have any evidence that "capitalism offers poor people a way out of poverty" or is this a divine edict from Jeffrey "free market shock treatment "Sachs and Thomas Freidman?
warm regards
Josuah Chamberlain(deceased)
Hi Frank:
The point wasn't to be nice and comforting. I merely meant to point out how a realistic solution can look, IF we manage to find it.
I merely meant to point out people like to believe this reasoning because it is nice and comforting.
the message greenpeace and others have been pushing for, for decades has come through, action is still far away, but all of a sudden no one shrugs their shoulders at those crazy tree-huggers anymore
You must know that in Germany people have taken the treehuggers pretty serious already in the 80ies. But that was widely ignored in those countries where people didn't see trees dying first hand. The ignorance is what concerns me. It doesn't surprise me that people don't see the pressure but I'd think a political system should be set up such to incorporate sheer knowledge of facts.
I'd agree with you though that there has been some progress in the last years, and the fact that this change of mind has happened rather fast is indeed a reason for hope. Unfortunately though, it seems to me people are focusing on completely the wrong problems. I mean, it would be nice could they come to any conclusions about how to do what, sure. But the actual problem is that there is no good way to lead these negotiations and they can fail at any stage. And with the next problem we'll have the same decades of back and forth. Either way, the climate change was only an example anyhow. What is currently much more scary is the global economical instability. I am not much of an an economist, but even I sense there will be some major economical crisis rather soon, possibly even this year. If you need any indicators, take Bush talking about the 'fundamentals of the economy being strong'. The whole situation in the US is incredibly unstable. There is a large percentage of people living damned close by poverty level. If their situation gets only slightly worse, they will be pushed to fight for survival, not because they want to, but because they have no other way out. This will not exactly encourage people to believe in strong fundamentals.
Best,
B.
PS: BTW, the rate at which problems appear is also set by our minds, isn't it?
I believe in external reality. What is set by our mind is the rate at which we admit there is a problem.
The energy problems I consider the much worse part because it will hit rather suddenly, yet despite all the hot air nobody actually does something about it.
Dear Bee, you might be interested in my writings on this topic here and here on Clifford's Wired Science blog. There _are_ people thinking and working seriously on the topic.
Someone asked: "Do you have any evidence that "capitalism offers poor people a way out of poverty" ?
Well, it isn't scientifically quantifiable or whatever but my own personal life is a big evidence that capitalism offers poor people a way out of poverty. And we aren't the only ones. There are many examples of 'common' people who have worked their way out of poverty by capitalist methods that don't include exploiting underage workers or selling useless crap. There is another part of the world that the "intellectual elite" tends to dismiss, disparage, and/or flat-out ignore. Just because someone is highly intelligent in science does not mean that intelligence translates to common sense and awareness of reality.
Bee, I'm sorry if this doesn't come out right, and I don't mean it as any kind of insult. It seems to me that in many ways the "intellectual elite" tends to overestimate its importance in the world in general. On the one hand you mention the "gap between politics and our intellectual elite" but on the other you say "Intelligence is no longer an evolutionary advantage if the content of thought becomes increasingly abstract and theoretical..."
Part of the problem is that the "elite" are just as confused as the rest of us about many practical things and aren't usually any better at communicating their ideas. And if a survey of the scientific blogs is any indication of what kind of world those "intellectual elites" want, then no thanks, I'm not buying it.
Maybe I'm in a cynical mood too ;-).
Hi Rae Ann,
No need to apologize. That someone who made the remark wasn't me, and I do actually agree on what you wrote in reply. In addition I think it is in fact scientifically quantifiable. But whether or not, there is without doubt a reason why capitalism is so successful.
Regarding your concerns about the 'intellectual elite'. It is quite interesting that you seem to assume I am referring to a certain type of technical intelligence that is necessarily detached from reality. It seems you have reservations about the practical usefulness of those people, even though they might be in their community highly regarded. So have I. It is a big problem imho that esp. in the humanistics the 'intellectual elite' is more or less detached from practical applications. I am afraid the reason why there aren't more people from the humanistics at The Edge is simply that there aren't many who are willing and able to write a understandable book. And this problem is more than just cosmetics. A scientist who isn't able to communicate his or her research is essentially useless.
What I am trying to say is that politics the way it is done right now is a game of vanities, it's a media event, and it lacks any scientific method. The best indicator for intelligence is the ability to think ahead and to learn from mistakes. Our political systems should realize that.
On the one hand you mention the "gap between politics and our intellectual elite" but on the other you say "Intelligence is no longer an evolutionary advantage if the content of thought becomes increasingly abstract and theoretical..."
What I am saying is that one has to invest time and effort into understanding, and this is not necessarily a process that is a priori productive in the capitalistic sense. It is the same problem as with funding basic research. It's a seeking of knowledge that is essential for progress on the long run, but it is not appreciated any more in our society. The gap between the leaders and the thinkers, this gap is simply speaking fatal to progress. And, apologies on my behalf, it gets worse by people who like you are completely convinced 'thinkers' are useless. Look, I am a phenomenologist. A product of thinking that doesn't have an application and is well confirmed by evidence isn't interesting to me, I am not talking about fantasies when I refer to 'thinking'. You make progress that way in the natural sciences, and you can do that in the social sciences as well. Where the people doing that, but who listens to them - this is one of the most important aspects for the future of our civilizations, yet who supports that? You say "the "intellectual elite" tends to overestimate its importance in the world in general, whereas I think in fact they greatly underestimate their importance. All those smart people I meet, I sometimes want to shout at them: it's your world, you have the brains, go use them for something!
And if a survey of the scientific blogs is any indication of what kind of world those "intellectual elites" want, then no thanks, I'm not buying it.
In my writing you'll sense a certain amount of frustration about the scientific community itself. It isn't much of an intellectual elite actually. I think though we are arguing about the meaning of a word that you seem to find offensive because you connect to it people living in a dream world. Let me assure you I certainly wouldn't want to impose more useless rhetoric on anybody. Best,
B.
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
If you want social influence, bounce a basketball. The world hates, fears, and loaths intelligence. Folks would rather burn to death huddled in a church than risk attacking their attackers.
This is vigorously exploited for political ends. 1984, Book One, Chapter 5: "Orthodoxy means not thinking — not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness." Church, State, charity, Enviro-whinerism, ethnic culture. Orthodoxy means not thinking — not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.
Dear Amara:
Thanks, I recall that you mentioned that before. The problem I am concerned about though isn't so much actually the energy source itself. I am pretty sure we can - in principle! - solve that problem. Though (as I wrote) I think it is the most likely people will fall back to the already available technology of nuclear fission. The problem I see is the the preparation in a timely manner. I see hundred millions of households heating with oil. Many of which in countries where one simply can't survive the winter without heating. What are these people supposed to do. The majority of households and companies in the western world relies on oil and gasoline - still. Sure, the reason is that people won't do anything until they are forced to. But then it might be too late. I am afraid that many people will suffer because we were not prepared in time. I am not saying it is impossible. It is good to see that people are asking the right questions, but how do they get their ideas become reality? That is where we are back to the problems I was writing about. Best,
B.
Beee wrote:
It doesn't surprise me that people don't see the pressure but I'd think a political system should be set up such to incorporate sheer knowledge of facts.
I think the basic problem (which has mushroomed over the last 20 yrs or so -- though that may just reflect my coming of age) is society's inability to agree on the facts. Debates raging over, e.g., climate change and economics make it nigh impossible for most people to distinguish fact, interpretation, and fantasy. And it's not necessarily a function of an observer's education level.
The problem is the difficulty of interpretation -- and hence ease of manipulation, either malicious, ignorant, or otherwise -- of non-rigorous analyses.
For the purposes of discussion, I'm defining a rigorous analysis as one which allows for engineering applications: tangible results that people can see and appreciate, based upon principles that aren't as accessible. Economics clearly falls short of this. To state the obvious: two physicists may have wildly different political views, but they (ultimately) will agree on the physics. Not so in economics! What kind of "science" largely reflects a practitioner's political views? (Of course, there may be a chicken-and-egg issue here: some may have legitimately acquired their views as a result of analysis. But overall there seems little of the "let's see where the data take us" kind of thinking going on.) I mean, when was the last time a physicist was described in a Science Times article as "liberal"? But the tag "liberal economist" or "conservative economist" is almost required in any responsible article that non-economists would read.
Climate change analyses are, alas, also susceptible to this kind of manipulation (malicious, ignorant, or otherwise). It's just too hard a problem, with (until recently?) few clear demonstrable effects. And, of course, no engineering.
Intellectually, people can certainly have different opinions. On global warming there is this for example:
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul/the-discover-interview-henrik-svensmark
The big problem is that world leadership (including the West) has a psychopathic agenda. Things are much worse behind the scenes than people think. They probably prefer to keep the intelligent masses busy argueing over all the little petty issues (and global warming is petty compared with the overall leadership problem).
How could I ignore your comment in regards to the Philosopher kings?
The term "king" might refer one to the "old system of governance" when it is something much more.
A philosopher King Plato defined a philosopher firstly as its eponymous occupation – wisdom-lover. He then distinguishes between one who loves true knowledge as opposed to simple sights or education by saying that a philosopher is the only man who has access to forms – the archetypal concept which lies behind all representations of the form (such as a table as opposed to any one particular table).
I keep this quote below for obvious reasons?:)
The Republic: "You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life."
Bee
You made the point I wanted to make -but didn't- about timing and the point of no return.
Which is worse Global Warming or fission technology? Global warming I would think. We may have to live with a certain number of Three mile Island Islands catastrophes. Can we live with that? We may have no choice. I don't like this state of affairs.
Maybe living with fission technology will scare the shit out of ordinary people into demanding that alternative energy technology be funded at the right levels. The horrifying spectacle of two headed infants-casualties of fission technology -might do this.
Back to Das Capital. Maybe we are talking past each other. My post was in the realm of macroeconomic policy. What is the evidence for sucessfull capitalist developement. You don't have to give an answer to this question at the present time. Just think about it. My own view is that there is no evidence for it.
Rae Ann
West Virgina coal miners have always fought and died to have protection against having pure free market principles applied to them.
It's always free marlet principles for the rest of us, parasites such as Bill Gates never have these principles applied to themsleves.
Try treating and raising your children according free market principles. If all families did this, civilization would collapse. The free market contains the most immoral code of ethics ever concieved.
warm regards
Joshua Chamberlain(deceased)
Bee wrote:
A society that doesn't listen to its thinkers in times like this is a society that is destined to fail.
For more on how these things go, I recommend Jared Diamond's book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. He explains, for example, why Iceland lost almost all its trees, and half its soil.
Good points, Bee. One of the scary things is this "peak oil" problem, which is easy to google for. As you might imagine, this is about oil demand outstripping supply, with disastrous consequences. If we had started on this problem earlier we could have gotten ahead of the tidal wave: with the sort of rational thought you suggest and not hampered by political hacks and egoist ideological cranks, corporatist disinformation, populations growth often fed by backward religious notions, and the inertia of the slumbering public who wanted to just cruise on with big cars, big consumption, etc.
One thing that would help scientists get their message of rational *practical* thought out: lay off religious concepts per se, with a misguided notion that you should be trying to disprove theism or the intuitively appealing implications of anthropic fine-tuning, etc. At the high metaphysical level it just turns people off and has no good practical purpose, not to be confused with when you have to disagree for known scientific reasons, like evolution, stem cells, etc.
Bee is not an offender at this, but so many like PZ and to some extent Sean at CV feel driven to pick on this unnecessarily.
Hi All:
Thanks so much for your interesting comments! It actually cheered me up a lot, reading your thoughts on the matter.
Un fortunately, I am currently stuck in the middle of a move, but will reply later in more detail. Wish me luck with the couch. I am halfways sure it mysteriously grew and won't fit through the door on the way out.
Best,
B.
Hi Bee,
When all seems hopeless it is sometimes helpful to read some of the words of those who thought their world were also at the brink.
“And what of the philosophers and teachers, ‘the most disaster-stricken of people, who stand dishevelled in their classrooms, wasting away because of their labours, deafened by their students’ shouting,’ who wouldn’t last another day without their illusions of grand learning?”
From In Praise of Folly (1509) by Desiderius Erasmus
Hi Bee: Good luck with your move and mysteriously grown couch!
For my move, my household, upon arrival on the other side of the Atlantic in the third week of December, was separated from the other shipments and Xrayed (I keep thinking that the dogs sniffed my tea and spices), and was then put on a train across the mid-section of the US between Christmas and New Years. Tomorrow, my house-on-the-train will enter Colorado, and on Monday, I will receive my household. Finally. Two months after waving goodbye to it in Frascati. I'm sort of bored wearing the same two wool sweaters. I'll have news for you then, if the gremlins in my international-move-from-hell have left for good to the nether-regions.
Hi Neil,
The Hubbert peak is from the 50ies and has been under discussion since the 70ies at least. It keeps shifting due to new found oil reservoirs, but I don't think anybody doubts it exists, and we either have already reached it, or it is pretty close. As I said above, the sad thing is that nothing of this discussion is actually new, yet people have postponed addressing the problem, maybe for too long.
One thing that would help scientists get their message of rational *practical* thought out: lay off religious concepts per se,
I neither find this necessary nor doable. I see the question of religion among scientists as I see the questions of religion among politicians: What they do in their private life is their business, but it shouldn't interfere with their job. I don't elect somebody to tell me he asks God how to lead a country or solve a problem, I elect them because they have the skills and the brains (hopefully). Same in science. Science is a job, there is theory, there is experiment. Yes, some scientists might be driven or inspired by their faith, and some like to talk about it - I have no problem with that, but I don't want to see this biasing their research, therefore it should stay out of their professional work. I have no problem with bloggers discussing religion, or generally the question that are on their minds but not in their papers. It is without doubt that religion, faith more generally, and the hope for life after death, plays a major role in our societies, also for scientists. The problem I have with the anthropic principle is not that in some variations it has an obvious religious touch, but that the attention it gets does by far exceed its usefulness, which I consider a complete waste of time and resources.
Best,
B.
Hi Uncle:
In fact by writing the above post I repeatedly thought of 1984. What people need to be happy isn't actually wealth, they want progress. That's what the human mind is looking for, constant improvement. The feeling to be better than the neighbor. Or the neighboring country. Orwell describes a nation that gets constantly told things are getting better though they aren't. Makes people feel good. Don't look left, don't look right. Tell your citizens your state is the best worldwide, the best political system, and the most stable economy system there is. Have a grip on the media, and a thumb on education. Start a war if everything else fails. Sound familiar? Best,
B.
Dear Arun:
I don't think of myself as a pessimist by nature. Mostly that's because I don't think mankind is that important, and maybe it wouldn't be all that bad if there were less of us on this planet. If I wouldn't believe there is hope we will be able to address our problems in a timely manner and avoid a significant amount of unnecessary suffering, then why would I write the above? I am writing because I want people to think about the matter, and I hope to increase awareness for the problems we are facing. I think the next some years will be very important to decide on what the future will bring. Globally. People who are suddenly faced with a difficult situation tend to misjudge matters. It is always better to be prepared, so we should start thinking - not today, but yesterday. Your blog always provides me with interesting details in this regard. What currently worries me the most is that I don't think the USA can keep up the living standard in this way for much longer. Maybe it is already declining. They don't take care of their own people, it's a disastrous side effect of a naive believe in the merits of capitalism. As I wrote in reply to Uncle above, it is a pretty much Orwellian tactic, pretending everything gets better though it doesn't, while bridges fall to pieces and people die in the streets. It's an illusion though that can't be kept up forever, especially not in a time where information crosses boundaries as unhindered as today. And there will be consequences. Technically seen, it still is a democracy. So there is a potential for a change. I hope they know how to use it, listen to the right people, and don't repeat mistakes. Best,
B.
Hi John,
Thanks, that book has been mentioned to me repeatedly, I will put it on my reading list... In case you don't know it, I can really recommend The Upside of Down. It is a very clear report of somebody who manages to bridge the gap between the natural sciences and the humanistics. Essentially the point is that there is little doubt we will be facing a crisis - sometime. Not now, maybe not next year, but a difficult time will come at some point. May it be our own mistake, or coincidence. The question is then, how well can we cope, how 'fit' is our civilization for survival. And presently it doesn't look good. The energy shortening is one of these points, I mentioned it above. It's been known for decades, yet we are still under prepared. I consider this a bug in our societies administration, and it is a bug that one can work around if one is aware of it. Science and reason helps. Empty words and talkshows don't. Representative democracy is a powerful tool, but it hasn't been expored to it's full potential. Economy has adapted to technological developments and globalization much faster, yet the political system is limping behind. Unnecessarily. This leads to an imbalance that causes lots of problems.
Best,
B.
Hi Joshua,
Yeah, maybe we are talking past each other, but then I have little experience in communicating with the deceased. Let me put it roughly like this: I think a free market is a good guide in many regards. It is flexible, and the interplay of supply and demand allows for a fast feedback - it works on a timescale much faster than any political process, and points towards economical growth.
This mechanism alone however doesn't cover all aspects important for a society, that's why one needs a political system to balance it. To begin with, somebody needs to assure the market is free and fair. But besides this, there are the social aspects, and there are the people's interest in work that is non-productive in the capitalistic sense, work that is supported by the government, i.e. funding is shared by all people. Societies who rate their progress on economical growth only fail to realize the mismatch to the actual quality of their living. However, for a long period economical growth is correlated with improvement of the circumstances of living. Better infrastructure, better medical supplies, better housing, clean water, electricity, phone, cars, highways, electrical gadgets, etc.
At some point however they will have to realize that economical growth correlates with better circumstances of living in a limited range, but isn't the same. That's when the political system becomes increasingly relevant. And those who have established it as a functioning counterweight in time have a big advantage then. Like Europe has now.
Best,
B.
Hi Bee,
You are a devil. With the introduction of this subject and the sites you pointed out, I went into a reading blitz. One of the most profound articles that related directly to all this was that done by Martin Rees (the Astronomer Royal). I actually heard and saw Rees several years back when I was attending a convocation at U of T. He impressed me then with his insight and wit as he continues to do here as I read the article which he entitled “We Should Take the 'Posthuman' Era Seriously” in which he covered much of what has been said and discussed here. The important difference is he also extends our responsibilities to the future not only to what we consider our current species yet what he calls the posthuman one. He opens his thoughts on this is saying:
“Public discourse on very long-term planning is riddled with inconsistencies. Mostly we discount the future very heavily — investment decisions are expected to pay off within a decade or two. But when we do look further ahead — in discussions of energy policy, global warming and so forth — we underestimate the possible pace of transformational change. In particular, we need to keep our minds open — or at least ajar — to the possibility that humans themselves could change drastically within a few centuries.”
He then continues as why this should be considered when he continues:
“Humanity will soon itself be malleable, to an extent that's qualitatively new in the history of our species. New drugs (and perhaps even implants into our brains) could change human character; the cyberworld has potential that is both exhilarating and frightening. We can't confidently guess lifestyles, attitudes, social structures, or population sizes a century hence. Indeed, it's not even clear for how long our descendants would remain distinctively 'human'. Darwin himself noted that "not one living species will transmit its unaltered likeness to a distant futurity". Our own species will surely change and diversify faster than any predecessor —— via human-induced modifications (whether intelligently-controlled or unintended), not by natural selection alone. Just how fast this could happen is disputed by experts, but the post-human era may be only centuries away.”
Rees finally sums up his whole take on this issue as is here discussed in concluding:
“It's real political progress that these long-term challenges are higher on the international agenda, and that planners seriously worry about what might happen more than a century hence. But in such planning, we need to be mindful that it may not be people like us who confront the consequences of our actions today. We are custodians of a 'posthuman' future — here on Earth and perhaps beyond — that can't just be left to writers of science fiction.”
Until I read this article I never imagined that this should also form part of our future considered actions as in the context of these far reaching and important consequences. It has been often said that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. In the case of Martin Rees, I think it is the old dog that has some tricks to still teach.
One thing I find very irratating, is how few people listen to academic and proffessional economists.
By and large their advice tends to be ignored, on all sides of the political spectrum.
It would be nice if they could be a little more public in pointing out things that are quite literally *wrong*
(Incidentally, I don't agree with the premise that the world or US economy is in dire straits, nor would most economists. In fact its the best it ever has been viewed on historical timescales, despite the fact that we are on the tail end of a business cycle)
Hi Bee,
A problem with calling on society to listen to its thinkers is that pretty much every position on every issue will have its advocates who will claim to have thought deeply about it and that their views deserve attention. How to determine which of the proclaimed thinkers we should really listen to? For example, it is amusing to see that everyone's favorite independent physicist is one of The Edge's invited contributors - is he now a deep thinker whose views we should all be paying attention to? Personally I am more inclined to listen to the views of Jacques Distler ;-) As with so many other things, the designation of people as deep thinkers is often based on them being loud or being hyped, and it's hard not to be a bit cynical about it.
In any case, imo the only times when it's reasonable to insist that society listen to its intellectual experts is when they reach a consensus view on something. And in those cases it seems society does listen eventually, and takes action, even when it goes against powerful economic interests, e.g. the tobacco industry. Now that a consensus seems to have been reached on global warming i expect that action will be taken on that as well, although i share your concern that it might not happen fast enough. But as for the polical issues of how to arrange society to maximize happiness, there is certainly no consensus on that and i doubt there ever will be.
If ordinary Americans are not paying attetion to academmic economists, I would consider that a very good sign. Maybe we will have future after all.
Joshua Chamberlain(deceased)
Science doesnt progress, nor is it done by majority rule. Its done by ascertaining the truth value of various statements either through experiment and by mathematical consistency/argumentation/logic.
If it was done by consensus, we'd have stalled hundreds of times over throughout our history. Indeed, one had but look at the field of astrophysics in the last hundred years to see just how far that sort of group notion can be *way* off the mark.
Bee
Oh you must try it more often-commucating with the deceased that is.
warm regards
Joshua Chamberlain(deceased)
Oh yes, even in Europe (which has so far resisted the idea of impoverishing the majority in order to increase the average more strongly) poverty is rising as the economies continue to grow.
It would be awesome if we could get a political system and an overall culture for our society which is capable of quickly accepting and absorbing such simple facts. Ideally one which would be quickly able to accept and absorb more complex scientific insights as well.
In a democratic society at least, the political culture does reflect the overall culture of society, and that's why I think the fight for this is part of the impetus of the Aufklärung and enlightenment.
The eternal (or at least long) struggle for reason over the comfort and madness of superstition.
Bee
You mentioned something about how one of the good things about the free market is that it gives rapid feedback-superluminal?-which suposedly brings about a change in the behavior of the economic agent.
Built into the free market economic model is the silly concept of perfect rationality. The idea of rapid market feedback is theoretically linked in a deep way with the concept of perect rationality and a few other assumptions. Econmetric models are based upon this-most of them. Clearly real human beings don't think and behave this way. I not claiming anything original here. Just wanted to point out that economist abstract from reality in a very peculiar way. I seriously doubt given the nature of the reward system in academic economic departments that these mathematical abstractions are not politically motivated.
One last point, a group of French economic students-several years back-revolted against the neo-classical model-the dominant model in academic economics-and started a serious critique of the neoclassical model that goes by the name "Autistic Economics". Their critique is not a trivial one.
I think the more important point/fact is that so many ordinary people around the world have revolted against the policy prescriptions that flow from the neoclassical economic model.
In one Indian state, hundreds of Indian farmer have expresed their displeasure with the policy prescriptions of the Neo-classical gurus-Jeffrey Sachs and Thomas Friedman, all doing quite well finacially-by comitting suicide.
It would be intersting to work out the logical links from the neoclassical assumptions of perfect rationality and utility maximation through economic models through their econometric number crunching stage and on to the suicides of these Indian farmers and starving teenage American school girls in certain towns of Ohio that have been blessed by the implementation of these neoclassical policy prescriptions in trade and industrial policy.
Warm Regards
Joshua Chamberlain(deceased)
Hi Geeky:
I think the basic problem (which has mushroomed over the last 20 yrs or so -- though that may just reflect my coming of age) is society's inability to agree on the facts. Debates raging over, e.g., climate change and economics make it nigh impossible for most people to distinguish fact, interpretation, and fantasy. And it's not necessarily a function of an observer's education level.
I don't believe in grassroot democracy, it doesn't work for too large groups of people, and not in a time in which expert knowledge is as specified as today. That is why most modern civilizations have a representative democracy: to get a group of people who are paid to acquire the necessary knowledge and decide on them according to the voter's intention reflecting in their party's program. Besides, a society's ability to agree on facts crucially depends on reasonable reporting and valuable information they obtain, which is imho today esp. in the US very suboptimal. What is done instead is mostly opinion generating with polarized reporting on differing sides. This is an obvious danger to democracy, and a known one, yet another point that people seem to ignore.
Yes, there are cases where the scientific discussions are not settled, and no consensus has been reached, this happens. As for the climate change, I think there is little doubt global warming is real, the question is whether it is caused by humans. But whether or not, one should deal with the situation, and energy saving is presently necessary whether or not one believes global warming is caused by humans. Therefore I think it is a big mistake to scare people with catastrophe scenarios, and no, the goal does not always justify the way.
Either way, the point I am trying to make is that there is a lot of scientific research being done about political, social and economical developments that ought to be integrated in our administrational systems - every advanced nation should take into account scientific insights, also about their managing organs and decision making processes. I know that there is quite some effort (for not to say: money) into modeling economical trends, and maybe this does actually lead somewhere, but this isn't actually what I am primarily concerned with. See, the economy is an incredibly complex system, and if it's too sensitive or too chaotic to predict I don't want them to spend decades to simulate it on a computer much like the weather, I want them to come up with a mechanism to stabilize it without endangering its useful features, to make it more useful, and less dangerously mysterious - too many people depend on a stable economy to just sit and watch. Unlike the weather its us who we make it, it is our tool, so lets make it maximally useful.
What bothers me is that in politics today two things get mixed up: the one is the actual political opinion and the decision making on questions where we want our society to go. The other one is the question how we best get there. The latter can be approached much more scientifically than is currently the case, shouldn't be subject to believes that already have proved wrong decades ago, and shouldn't be confused with the first. Best,
B.
Hi Joshua:
Oh you must try it more often-commucating with the deceased that is.
Yeah, you seem to be new around, so you probably don't know that I feature the idea that the commenters on this blog are just manifestations of my multiple personality disorder. I am presently trying to cope with the fact that not only do I host a lot people who are apparently more witty and intelligent than I am, but in addition some of them are already deceased. I find this somehow disconcerting.
Either way, thanks for mentioning the references, I will have a look at that. Yes, people do not always behave rationally, especially not on too short timescales, and this potential weakness should not affect the functionality of our marketplace. The stock market isn't a funny psychological game where one can loose or win money, it is supposed to be tool to guide investment of capital.
You mentioned something about how one of the good things about the free market is that it gives rapid feedback-superluminal?-which suposedly brings about a change in the behavior of the economic agent.
Well, as I said, as everything this has its limitations. Too rapid feedback isn't good either for exactly the reason you point out, basically the human brain needs time to value facts accordingly. I mentioned this just to explain roughly why a free marked has proved to be useful, more useful than planned economy that is. I like to picture it like an optimization process on a surface, where a maximum is to be found. If one tries around small steps in some directions, looks at the feedback and acts accordingly, one will find a way uphills. The problem is however that in this way one a) can reach a state that is very unstable b) it is difficult to leave a low local maximum towards a higher one c) money simple doesn't accurately reflect all relevant parameters for a society's well being - that's what I meant to indicate above. The economy alone doesn't allow variations into all possible directions, all feedback becomes one-dimensional. Again, this can work in certain circumstances, but one has to be aware of the limitations or one runs into trouble - it needs a political system to be completed and take into account all relevant parameters.
Best,
B.
Hi Amused:
A problem with calling on society to listen to its thinkers is that pretty much every position on every issue will have its advocates who will claim to have thought deeply about it and that their views deserve attention. How to determine which of the proclaimed thinkers we should really listen to?
What I was trying to say is that I'd like to see argumentations as reasonable and scientific as far as possible. It is my impression that indeed most scientists are seeking for the truth in the best meaning, and are willing to listen to each other's arguments. Sure there will be differing opinions, but look at the natural sciences. Yes, we are fighting on the fronts where evidence is missing and the value of insights is still discussed, and everybody claims to have the best 'thought. But we have a pretty solid basis of textbook knowledge, theories and models that are incredibly well confirmed in their range of applicability, that has lead to a lot of progress. Where is the corresponding process of insight and application in politics and sociology? Even though the administration of our society and the decision making processes becomes increasingly relevant we seem to be stuck in the last century - meanwhile the economical systems have adapted rapidly to globalization and technological developments, which only makes the imbalance worse. It's about time for politics to arrive in the 21st century.
But as for the polical issues of how to arrange society to maximize happiness, there is certainly no consensus on that and i doubt there ever will be.
So do I, neither do I think 'happiness' is a well defined concept to begin with. A priority should be the system to remain open for improvements. But there might simply be options that prove more useful than others. And this is a question which can be addressed much more scientifically than currently is the case.
Best,
B.
Hi John G:
They probably prefer to keep the intelligent masses busy argueing over all the little petty issues (and global warming is petty compared with the overall leadership problem).
Yes. But that doesn't shed a good light on their 'intelligence' does it? Best,
B.
Hi Anonymous:
One thing I find very irratating, is how few people listen to academic and proffessional economists.
By and large their advice tends to be ignored, on all sides of the political spectrum.
It would be nice if they could be a little more public in pointing out things that are quite literally *wrong*
Yes. I guess the reason though is the overall problem that the scientific side of the discussion gets severely neglected in the media.
(Incidentally, I don't agree with the premise that the world or US economy is in dire straits, nor would most economists. In fact its the best it ever has been viewed on historical timescales, despite the fact that we are on the tail end of a business cycle)
Well, I don't know much about economy, and I'd be happy to be wrong. I don't think there is actually trouble right now, it just seems to me people are getting nervous about the global political situation, the energy and oil problem. Meanwhile Europe and Asia both are likewise suspicious about the US, internal and external affairs, and are doing well enough to rely less on them. This feeling doesn't actually have anything to do with the economy, more with the political situation. It seems to me in this setting a small fluctuation can have a big impact. Best,
B.
Hi Frank:
It would be awesome if we could get a political system and an overall culture for our society which is capable of quickly accepting and absorbing such simple facts. Ideally one which would be quickly able to accept and absorb more complex scientific insights as well.
There will be limits to this as well, but there is presently a huge unused potential for improvement. The political/tax systems that we have are centuries old. Given that they are the most important tool to direct our future one should think there was some more effort in updating them and optimizing their functionality in a rapidly changing time.
In a democratic society at least, the political culture does reflect the overall culture of society, and that's why I think the fight for this is part of the impetus of the Aufklärung and enlightenment.
The eternal (or at least long) struggle for reason over the comfort and madness of superstition.
In principle I agree, just that I don't think there is much comfort in the present situation either. In fact, it seems a significant amount of people have very little faith in the present political system and/or their politicians. They either think they are all corrupt, or all stupid and they themselves could make it better. The problem is though that in the circumstances you mention, a change can't come from either side. Neither from the society, nor from the politicians. That's why I believe it's about time the 'thinkers' make themselves heard, and point out the flaws, and ways to improvement. Best,
B.
Leadership (government/industry/military) seems only intelligent if you define it in a short term, selfish (for the leaders not their people) way. Oil too could fit with this.
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/140568-Confessions+of+an+%22ex%22+Peak+Oil+Believer
Have you seen the movie "A Crude Awakening" ?
Its website is
http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/dvd.html
If you get a chance, see it and maybe comment on it.
Tony Smith
Bee and everyone else gloom-and-doom about energy: the oil bust will come neither soon nor will be a real bust. Read up on the meaning of "proven" reserves - those are reserves that are economically recoverable under present or near-future prices and technology. If you dig deep enough (no pun intended) in the information, you will also find that the proven reserves constitute on the order 10% of the total oil (and probably gas as well) in the ground. This means that as the easy oil starts running out, the prices will increase and (1) will make more oil "proven recoverable" and (2) will lower consumption and/or encourage development of alternatives. There will be no bust; the world will simply smoothly shift to alternative energy sources. Adjustment will certainly be necessary, but it will be much easier with future technology than it would be if the governments listened to you and decreed it right now.
Oil alternatives-- we have been using one of them for decades, eg
here
here
alcohol, derived from sugar cane. Renewable, non-pollutant, but you must have the right climate and large area for plantation... Brazil has all this, plenty. But environment impact due to large plantation are must be taken into account, I don't know how far this is being considered.
My car run by alcohol and I really like its performance.
Christine
That is why most modern civilizations have a representative democracy: to get a group of people who are paid to acquire the necessary knowledge and decide on them according to the voter's intention reflecting in their party's program.
For that topic, I suggest that the voting age be eliminated. From Children's Political Rights Bob Franklin says:
"I would suggest that the most persuasive solution to the problem of political inclusion can be provided by resurrecting a simple proposal made by John Holt, which is endorsed by the research literature on political learning and childhood political socialization. Holt's prescription is as appealing as it is simple. He doesn't wish to lower the voting age incrementally but seeks 'the right to vote for people of any age.' No one should be left out. Eligibility, on his account, is determined by awareness and interest in political affairs. Everyone should have the right to vote when their interest, knowledge and involvement in politics are sufficiently developed to motivate them so to do; as interest develops, so participation will increase. This does not mean that all children would vote, and it seems probable that very young children with only a marginal, if any, interest in politics would abstain. Holt considers that few six-year olds would exercise their vote but that ten-year olds would be different, since they seem to understand at least as much about the world and its problems as I or most of my friends did when we left college..."
And then he gives what I consider very persuasive arguments. More links on that topic: