tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post8821998566871899619..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Understanding Quantum Mechanics #5: Decoherence Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger225125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85302007770267401112021-05-08T10:31:13.415-04:002021-05-08T10:31:13.415-04:00Yesterday on a bike ride I had what might be consi...Yesterday on a bike ride I had what might be considered a precognitive experience, that perhaps has its roots in Quantum Mechanics. As I mentioned upthread at 1:14 PM, August 28, 2020: “In my own very non-professional opinion, I suspect some as yet unknown aspect of Quantum Mechanics underlies the seeming capacity of living organisms to detect future events that could impact the organism’s David Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048116250413347228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-4052713600510857062020-09-03T14:35:13.186-04:002020-09-03T14:35:13.186-04:00Apparently not only can information get sucked int...Apparently not only can information get sucked into a black hole it can also get sucked into a rabbit hole where it actually does get lost forever amid much wasted space & time. <br /><br />But from the rabbit hole and this discussion of consciousness no visible light has been emitted,Steve Bullfoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13990244011256349875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-47057952985649581742020-09-03T10:45:25.534-04:002020-09-03T10:45:25.534-04:00Lorraine,
As I have told you several dozen of tim...Lorraine,<br /><br />As I have told you several dozen of times, it is entirely irrelevant how computers work. They are made of particles. Just like the human brain.<br /><br />Also, I have had enough of your stupid comments. You don't have to bother comment here any more; it's wasting too much of my time.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89438607442081250012020-09-03T09:53:52.311-04:002020-09-03T09:53:52.311-04:00As I wrote once before under a different post, all...As I wrote once before under a different post, all Lorraine Ford's arguments about how computers work and why they can't ever think for themeslves (as AlphaGo does while playing the game of Go) sound to me like arguments for why humans can not think (and maybe she's right, we can't but just think we can). Dr. Castaldo has explained this in great detail--thank you.<br /><br />As JimVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10198704789965278981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-65867582594745070092020-09-03T09:26:56.137-04:002020-09-03T09:26:56.137-04:00Castaldo,
“paranoid”? Actually, I was thinking of ...Castaldo,<br />“paranoid”? Actually, I was thinking of Steven’s continual attacks on Dave. Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-70484490910701443032020-09-03T09:25:36.910-04:002020-09-03T09:25:36.910-04:00Sabine,
Lets face it: you and a lot of other physi...Sabine,<br />Lets face it: you and a lot of other physicists really, really, don't know how computers work. Dave is one of the few physicists who <i>does</i> know how computers work because he has designed the circuits. Did you ever think that it might be a good idea to examine the facts about codes, voltages and binary digits BEFORE you decided that computers could be conscious? No you Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-45026435312315854662020-09-03T07:24:36.719-04:002020-09-03T07:24:36.719-04:00Lorraine: Attack-dog? That's paranoid. Just be...Lorraine: Attack-dog? That's paranoid. Just because several people in an open forum find your arguments irrational does not mean we have a leader. We agree with Dr. Hossenfelder, we don't take direction from her.<br /><br />Your argument about "lawful voltages" is nonsense. The brain is locked in a dark insulated box, the skull. Everything it receives is in the form of Dr. A.M. Castaldohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988116835722393503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-785158135859380312020-09-03T01:22:12.248-04:002020-09-03T01:22:12.248-04:00Lorraine,
I did not say computers are aware they ...Lorraine,<br /><br />I did not say computers are aware they are made of transistors, I said there is no reason to think they cannot be. You are wasting my time. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62326890274986552632020-09-02T20:35:48.750-04:002020-09-02T20:35:48.750-04:00Sabine,
I would have thought that Steven can spea...Sabine,<br /><br />I would have thought that Steven can speak for himself. Presumably, he is not your mouthpiece. He is certainly your attack-dog. Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41141215613007883232020-09-02T20:31:54.477-04:002020-09-02T20:31:54.477-04:00Sabine,
You are embarrassing yourself.
A comput...Sabine,<br /><br />You are embarrassing yourself. <br /><br />A computer/ AI is an entity in the same sense that the wiring of a house is an entity. It is pretty far-fetched to think that this “entity” is aware of its own voltages and materials (wires and transistors) and their law-of-nature lawful numeric outcomes. But assuming that this “entity” is indeed aware of its own voltages and materialsLorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86599156371258265622020-09-02T14:24:57.570-04:002020-09-02T14:24:57.570-04:00Lorraine,
You claim that computers cannot be cons...Lorraine,<br /><br />You claim that computers cannot be conscious about the meaning of their internal voltages.<br /><br />Do you think that humans could one day understand consciousness?<br /><br />If the answer is yes, then humans could use this knowledge to build a conscious machine.<br /><br />If the answer is no, it mean that humans cannot understand the meaning of their internal voltages, Udi Fuchshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02529460830838964526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37743588067681857372020-09-02T11:52:24.780-04:002020-09-02T11:52:24.780-04:00Lorraine,
The 5 points you list are simply statem...Lorraine,<br /><br />The 5 points you list are simply statements that you put forward without any argument whatsoever. I have no reason to think they are correct, indeed I have good reason to think they are wrong, and even if they were correct, they have nothing to do with consciousness. If someone were using chemical potentials in your brain to "represent" something else, that wouldn&#Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-57601528140069192442020-09-02T11:39:45.344-04:002020-09-02T11:39:45.344-04:00Lorraine,
Steven has explained this many, many ti...Lorraine,<br /><br />Steven has explained this many, many times with near infinite patience. You plainly refuse to think about what he is saying. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-19149731292137515972020-09-02T11:08:02.117-04:002020-09-02T11:08:02.117-04:00Steven,
Whatever you think I am saying, if you dis...Steven,<br />Whatever you think I am saying, if you disagree with it, it is up to you to explain in detail why you think it is wrong. Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-74571518296856908692020-09-02T11:02:12.443-04:002020-09-02T11:02:12.443-04:00Sabine,
You are wrong. People that believe that c...Sabine,<br /><br />You are wrong. People that believe that computers could be conscious of what they are processing are essentially no different to people that believe that the earth is flat.<br /><br />Dave and I have in fact explained why computers/ AIs can’t be conscious of the information they are processing. The issue is symbolic representation/ codes:<br /><br />1) Computers/ AIs can’t knowLorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-48245540132193721182020-09-02T04:33:31.195-04:002020-09-02T04:33:31.195-04:00Prof. David Edwards,
Let me explain why I do beli...Prof. David Edwards,<br /><br />Let me explain why I do believe that the quantum logic approach is not justified and does more to obfuscate the quantum-classical differences than clarify them.<br /><br />Let’s consider an isolated electron having the classical state q0, p0. We should now ask what will be the classical state of this electron when its position is measured. Well, the electron will Andreihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05519448415253342448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-1802011412410634062020-09-02T02:47:30.616-04:002020-09-02T02:47:30.616-04:00Lorraine Ford9:05 PM, September 01, 2020
"I ...Lorraine Ford9:05 PM, September 01, 2020<br /><br />"I think your other problem is that you can’t read: you haven’t read what I actually said, which is more nuanced" <br /><br />I can't read what isn't there. I'm not a mind reader. <br /><br />What is your justification for your claim that the mind absolutely, definitively, 100% cannot be emergent from the brain? <br /><br /Steven Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13898046706669437332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67594317882337438572020-09-02T01:22:59.236-04:002020-09-02T01:22:59.236-04:00Lorraine,
"Dave and I have explained why com...Lorraine,<br /><br /><i>"Dave and I have explained why computers/ AIs can’t be conscious of the information they are processing. End of story."</i><br /><br />You have not "explained" any such thing, you have merely claimed that you know this to be the case. JimV is very politely pointing out that it's obvious you are talking nonsense and he is entirely correct. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80312152270295124242020-09-01T22:46:46.609-04:002020-09-01T22:46:46.609-04:00P.S. JimV,
What Dave and I have explained about co...P.S. JimV,<br />What Dave and I have explained about computers is not new information. It’s been known all along. Literally millions of people know the facts about how computers actually work; and this is the way computers need to be in order to work as required. The only issue is with people who can’t face the facts about computers, or don’t know the facts about computers; and there are Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-40171472820339013142020-09-01T21:09:24.730-04:002020-09-01T21:09:24.730-04:00JimV,
Just like the flat-earthers don’t understand...JimV,<br />Just like the flat-earthers don’t understand evidence, <i>you</i> don’t understand evidence. Dave and I have explained why computers/ AIs can’t be conscious of the information they are processing. End of story. I leave you to your delusions. Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15349920444263567492020-09-01T21:05:50.527-04:002020-09-01T21:05:50.527-04:00Steven,
I think your other problem is that you can...Steven,<br />I think your other problem is that you can’t read: you haven’t read what I actually said, which is more nuanced than you make out. I can’t help you with that. Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-66930069152585384282020-09-01T12:07:32.603-04:002020-09-01T12:07:32.603-04:00"The lawful information that is acquired by t..."The lawful information that is acquired by the sensory systems of living things is a type of universally understood information from the point of view of the particles, atoms and molecules in the sensory system. This information is further analysed by the mind/brain. But the inputs to computers (i.e. binary digit codes) are not universally understood information: the man-made codes can’t beJimVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10198704789965278981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58241048746139484562020-09-01T11:28:19.115-04:002020-09-01T11:28:19.115-04:00Lorraine Ford6:34 AM, September 01, 2020
This is ...Lorraine Ford6:34 AM, September 01, 2020<br /><br />This is the absolute simplest I can make it for you and Dave:<br /><br />Question: Is the mind weakly emergent from the brain?<br /><br />Sane Answer: Maybe yes or maybe no.<br />Sane Reason: We don't know the answer.<br /><br />Crazy Answer: No<br />Crazy Reason: <--- You and Dave should fill in your reason or "logical Steven Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13898046706669437332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85469325975412097502020-09-01T10:37:42.079-04:002020-09-01T10:37:42.079-04:00Lorraine Ford6:34 AM, September 01, 2020
"If...Lorraine Ford6:34 AM, September 01, 2020<br /><br />"If you don’t like what I say, it is up to you to provide positive evidence that what I am saying is not so."<br /><br />No, silly. You are making the positive claim. I am saying effectively that the mind could be weakly emergent from the brain, or strongly emergent, or there could be other input into the mind than the brain.<br />But Steven Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13898046706669437332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-69791479755876320382020-09-01T06:34:40.506-04:002020-09-01T06:34:40.506-04:00No Steven,
If you don’t like what I say, it is up...No Steven,<br /><br />If you don’t like what I say, it is up to you to provide positive evidence that what I am saying is not so.<br /><br />Just like I have provided positive evidence to JimV (e.g. [1]) that what he was saying about computers/ AIs is not so. <br /><br />1. Lorraine Ford 12:13 AM, August 28, 2020, in “Understanding Quantum Mechanics #5: Decoherence” . Lorraine Fordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00175567853773691970noreply@blogger.com