tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post805401841638702343..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Predetermined Lunch and Moral ResponsibilitySabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger92125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-39381217147970949152013-06-14T03:44:36.591-04:002013-06-14T03:44:36.591-04:00Patrick,
What I am saying is: You can call "...Patrick,<br /><br />What I am saying is: You can call "free will" whatever you want. It's just not what I'm referring to as free will. I don't see the point really in discussing the use of a word. If you think it makes sense to call decisions being a consequence of executing "free will" when the decision was predetermined at an earlier time, then I'll not Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-43451344354601690192013-06-13T05:07:09.520-04:002013-06-13T05:07:09.520-04:00The point I wanted to make is that the thing that ...The point I wanted to make is that the thing that is externally given over which we don't really have any conscious control, is our desires and emotions ; but we don't have the sensation either that we determine them "freely". It just happens, and we realize that we don't choose them.<br /><br />We may have the impression that our consciously chosen actions try to satisfy Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450883588074355393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34788455097444306362013-06-11T23:51:09.575-04:002013-06-11T23:51:09.575-04:00The point about the misunderstanding about "f...The point about the misunderstanding about "free will" is that people think, have the feeling, that they act in order to satisfy their desires, and they seem to succeed ; and that's also correct!<br />People usually DO succeed in handling in such a way that their desires are accomplished. The point is that that is in no way in any contradiction with even a deterministic universe, Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450883588074355393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2619936776748260122013-06-11T04:29:27.435-04:002013-06-11T04:29:27.435-04:00Patrick,
"Determinism is not a problem for &...Patrick,<br /><br /><i>"Determinism is not a problem for "free will" if you define it properly: free will is acting as a function of one's goals."</i><br /><br />Yeah, there are arguably many ways to define free will so that we have one. But what's the point in doing that? Also, it's simply not the definition I have used because I don't think it's useful, Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58761451511310339492013-06-10T15:47:23.042-04:002013-06-10T15:47:23.042-04:00Determinism is not a problem for "free will&q...Determinism is not a problem for "free will" if you define it properly: free will is acting as a function of one's goals.<br /><br />Any (deterministic or not) mechanism that will result in your body undertaking actions that promote your goals is an expression of "free will".<br /><br />The point is rather that your *goals* are not freely determined. Your goals (the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14450883588074355393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-68464732819051244402013-05-10T02:34:03.128-04:002013-05-10T02:34:03.128-04:00Some further thoughts:
1) If free-will is illusive...Some further thoughts:<br />1) If free-will is illusive and is entirely passive in all courses of human action, then we are simply zombies of deterministic processes inside our brain. If this is true, why did evolution create such an illusion?<br />In other words, what are the evolutionary advantages of this illusion of free-will?<br /><br />2) Maybe the action of a person is really tytunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777947785613061617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52797483101367459072013-05-06T22:47:44.939-04:002013-05-06T22:47:44.939-04:00This is strange, people worried about the existenc...This is strange, people worried about the existence of free-will and moral responsibility, but do not worry about the existence of "self".<br />As I see it, self comes before free-will, there is no sensible idea of free-will without a self. Without self we can not be sure what should be responsible for an action - is it the genes? is it the chemistry? or is it mis-connections of the tytunghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05777947785613061617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-8619925677887634902011-09-17T08:04:58.072-04:002011-09-17T08:04:58.072-04:00Neil:I don't believe in a cyclical universe si...<b>Neil</b>:<i>I don't believe in a cyclical universe since the same things would all happen again, and I believe in real indeterminism. (Maybe it does expand and contract in general, but given dark energy how could it do that, even?)</i><br /><br />No singularity.<br /><br />If a duality in nature can exist, then can one counter any position of expansion by saying, possible contractions in PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-17250121332731232812011-09-15T20:33:16.425-04:002011-09-15T20:33:16.425-04:00Bee, that is understandable and likely correct at ...Bee, that is understandable and likely correct at the piecemeal level. However, I think that the brain has an interrelated wholeness (I know, fuzzy concept and hard to validate but there are some interesting studies of the behavior of the whole that are hard IMHO to understand as separated parts just influencing each other. Was discussed in Wired Magazine of 3/24/08.) I will need to see what Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31812705434927534232011-09-15T03:41:15.472-04:002011-09-15T03:41:15.472-04:00Sabine had written:
"Paranormal phenomena ha...Sabine had written:<br /><br />"Paranormal phenomena have nothing to do with free will, for they don't address at all the question whether you have any choice doing what you do. They just attempt to enlarge the realm of things you can do."<br /><br />Nadja had written:<br />"I don't understand why para-phenomena (if they would exist) could not in principle also influence nad0815https://www.blogger.com/profile/15640373035677970013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51504644206221543802011-09-15T02:41:54.792-04:002011-09-15T02:41:54.792-04:00Hi Nad,
Yes, it does of course depend on what one...Hi Nad,<br /><br />Yes, it does of course depend on what one means with free will. My post was quite fuzzy on that. Thing is, I wrote a much longer text in which I explained what I mean with free will, but then that part I left out. Since I have your email address, I can just send you the full text (and don't worry, you don't have to read it if you don't want). Basically, I think if Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-27154871808945041722011-09-15T02:27:31.248-04:002011-09-15T02:27:31.248-04:00Neil,
If collapse is undetermined, then it's ...Neil,<br /><br />If collapse is undetermined, then it's random and there isn't anything "free" about your decisions either. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60900949246222380592011-09-14T14:19:25.592-04:002011-09-14T14:19:25.592-04:00Plato, I think free will and free choice mean abou...Plato, I think free will and free choice mean about the same, to most people - but I do make a distinction. "Will" means the ability for the "self" to force the rest of the mind into compliance: will myself to sit still even though I feel buffeted by stimuli or feelings of wanting to move, forcing oneself not to eat more, to diet, to quit smoking despite the cravings, etc. Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-68833066435592618872011-09-14T14:11:06.753-04:002011-09-14T14:11:06.753-04:00Neil:If collapse is inexplicable, and it still is,...<b>Neil</b>:<i>If collapse is inexplicable, and it still is, then our actions are not predetermined. I think it's no coincidence, it relates to "free choice."</i><br /><br />Okay Neil, thanks for clarification of the relation to Free choice, but you did not say Freewill? <br /><br />If you believe there is "no singularity" then is it possible to believe in "cyclical PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-74194934098488097502011-09-14T12:17:07.512-04:002011-09-14T12:17:07.512-04:00Heh, well Steve he is in trouble if he glibly acce...Heh, well Steve he is in trouble if he glibly accepts the fallacious argument (as I and others have argued it is) that loss of coherence relations would lead to anything resembling selection of the quantum options (lead to collapse.) If collapse is inexplicable, and it still is, then our actions are not predetermined. I think it's no coincidence, it relates to "free choice."<br /><Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58227480658067102092011-09-14T10:52:40.214-04:002011-09-14T10:52:40.214-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-74974934461875686812011-09-14T10:52:04.970-04:002011-09-14T10:52:04.970-04:00I'm telling Neil Bates you mentioned Decoheren...I'm telling Neil Bates you mentioned Decoherence, Plato. You're in trouble now, hoo-boy.Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42701106282073881852011-09-14T09:26:33.798-04:002011-09-14T09:26:33.798-04:00The reality of wave function collapse has always b...<i>The reality of wave function collapse has always been debatable, i.e., whether it is a fundamental physical phenomenon in its own right or just an epiphenomenon of another process, such as quantum decoherence.[2] In recent decades the quantum decoherence view has gained popularity.[citation needed] <b>Collapse may be understood as an update in a probabilistic model, given the observed result.<PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16424660301719507382011-09-14T04:00:11.180-04:002011-09-14T04:00:11.180-04:00Sabine wrote:
"If somebody's decisions a...Sabine wrote:<br /><br />"If somebody's decisions are determined by somebody else's decisions, then this just begs the question whether that somebody else has free will. I also don't know why this has something to do with whether there is pure randomness, for if something is random you're not making any choice either."<br /><br />In school, in the subject "ethics&nad0815https://www.blogger.com/profile/15640373035677970013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16988855065053186432011-09-13T11:50:02.962-04:002011-09-13T11:50:02.962-04:00This independence created by philosophical insight...<i>This independence created by philosophical insight is—in my opinion—the mark of distinction between a mere artisan or specialist and a real seeker after truth. <b>(Einstein to Thornton, 7 December 1944, EA 61-574)</b></i><br /><br />Hopefully I can bring more to the table on this subject by connecting further <a href="http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/2011/05/PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-23478536447718374122011-09-13T05:33:36.678-04:002011-09-13T05:33:36.678-04:00Hi Nad,
I don't see how any of that addresses...Hi Nad,<br /><br />I don't see how any of that addresses the question whether there is free will. It just pushes around the bump under the carpet. If somebody's decisions are determined by somebody else's decisions, then this just begs the question whether that somebody else has free will. I also don't know why this has something to do with whether there is pure randomness, for ifSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6987759295738784462011-09-13T03:55:45.824-04:002011-09-13T03:55:45.824-04:00Sabine wrote:
"I don't see how its exist...Sabine wrote:<br /><br />"I don't see how its existence would change anything about the question whether your choices where predetermined or random, or what it means to make a choice to begin with."<br /><br />It seems to me that in some sense the question is related to the question of "is there pure randomness?"<br />If there is and if you would have some para-phenomena nad0815https://www.blogger.com/profile/15640373035677970013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-12319395175880337112011-09-13T02:19:43.668-04:002011-09-13T02:19:43.668-04:00Hi Nad,
For what I am concerned, para phenomena w...Hi Nad,<br /><br />For what I am concerned, para phenomena would be some sort of 5th force that for whatever reason only couples to 'consciousness' and allows things like remote sensing or telekinesis and other fantasies. I don't see how its existence would change anything about the question whether your choices where predetermined or random, or what it means to make a choice to beginSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51347643975988942232011-09-12T20:24:17.682-04:002011-09-12T20:24:17.682-04:00I voted for Other -- Scientists have a vested inte...I voted for Other -- Scientists have a vested interest in determinism, because only a determinist model could account for both mind and behavior with zero information loss. Any insertion of freedom is essentially a claim for indeterminacy, or lack of accountability, and this is anathema to scientists who advocate eliminative materialism. <br /><br />That said, there are many credible arguments rascheR duBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03922728384652010914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59312325369826013892011-09-12T15:29:52.839-04:002011-09-12T15:29:52.839-04:00Nad,
Thanks for your comments. I value the opinion...Nad,<br />Thanks for your comments. I value the opinions and arguments you have expressed here. The question of free will is a complex one (philosophers have written pages just in order to define it) and until we have a better understanding of consciousness, I believe the question will remain open. <br /><br />I just have a strong belief (and it is only a belief) that one of the traits that Dan T. Benedicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12477794982567649890noreply@blogger.com