tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post5292071092785652586..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Cosmic BellSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-45550641575331248282013-12-08T04:49:51.504-05:002013-12-08T04:49:51.504-05:00Neil,
The conclusion you can draw from the accumu...Neil, <br />The conclusion you can draw from the accumulated statistics depends on the presumed independence of the detector settings. Best,<br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-27960567426329881942013-12-07T17:52:14.554-05:002013-12-07T17:52:14.554-05:00Bee, this may sound naive about the framing of the...Bee, this may sound naive about the framing of the experiments, but it seems to me that per-instance independence of the settings is not really the issue for the free-choice concept (as meant in context.) Wouldn't it be enough just to accumulate statistics generated from a wide range of relative settings? In the proofs I see explained, that is the point. IOW, the number of same hits at 60 Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51085429929441716042013-12-04T17:56:48.648-05:002013-12-04T17:56:48.648-05:00Hi Bee: Thanks for your reply.I will try to unders...Hi Bee: Thanks for your reply.I will try to understand SD little better.It reminds me of law of Karma of Hinduism!!! But even there, although your past is sealed<br />and you have to bear consequences, you are allowed to mend the future!!kashyap vasavadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10732897306667764590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41804017375544990802013-12-04T07:02:50.426-05:002013-12-04T07:02:50.426-05:00Hi Marko,
No, you can 'in principle' neve...Hi Marko,<br /><br />No, you can 'in principle' never falsify superdeterminism because it is possible that such a theory would perfectly mimic all the outcomes of quantum mechanics and we'd never notice because we can't measure the 'hidden variables'. That's the same as saying you can't prove that a dinosaur who you can't interact with doesn't exist. Alas, Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-81426154040045814082013-12-04T05:48:52.099-05:002013-12-04T05:48:52.099-05:00Hi Bee,
"in a superdeterministic theory the ...Hi Bee,<br /><br />"in a superdeterministic theory the conclusion that quantum mechanics (standard interpretation) is the correct description of reality can no longer be made."<br /><br />Are you saying that a SD theory must have different experimental predictions from QM? That would make SD falsifiable in principle, right?<br /><br />"Regarding realism. You can have a perfectly vmarkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12660488689205445871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-36997372849249129992013-12-04T04:35:01.211-05:002013-12-04T04:35:01.211-05:00kashyap,
No, I don't think that. Besides, you...kashyap,<br /><br />No, I don't think that. Besides, you could make the same argument in classical mechanics already. The reason we can do experiments rests on thermodynamics and some approximate validity of locality and causality. I believe your main problem is that you have a misunderstanding of the necessity of free will. <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.se/2013/07/Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-83183200772821252722013-12-04T04:30:53.513-05:002013-12-04T04:30:53.513-05:00Hi Marko,
You have it backwards. Saying 'supe...Hi Marko,<br /><br />You have it backwards. Saying 'superdeterminism' doesn't make quantum mechanics deterministic. The point is that in a superdeterministic theory the conclusion that quantum mechanics (standard interpretation) is the correct description of reality can no longer be made. <br /><br />Regarding realism. You can have a perfectly determined superposition of eigenstates. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42605130198616341062013-11-30T14:17:56.858-05:002013-11-30T14:17:56.858-05:00Hi Bee,
Thanks for the clarification! The lack of...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification! The lack of good literature on SD is really frustrating... After reading your description of SD, I am confused about SD being actually deterministic. Nonlocal correlations between the system and the detector can indeed go around Bell's inequalities, but I don't see why does that make the theory deterministic? Besides, if the theory is vmarkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12660488689205445871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-91446923074555971712013-11-28T19:56:58.781-05:002013-11-28T19:56:58.781-05:00I saw some of the links and eariler lively discuss...I saw some of the links and eariler lively discussions. Surely some of us have felt in this pursuit of knowledge the wisdom initially given to us is somehow a superdtermined destiny. Consider Penrose and his term "quantanglement ". Arithmetic seems to be independent of the continuum hypothesis and the axiom of choice from an infinite set of elements. Both axioms are relavant to models L. Edgar Ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525169618204198073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56839345820677450182013-11-28T15:59:00.256-05:002013-11-28T15:59:00.256-05:00@Unknown
as philosophy your question does not reac...@Unknown<br />as philosophy your question does not reach the depth and span of these frontier issues. Does the Higgs concept exist as a phenomenon or reality? Can any proof or disproof exist now or in the futute be there by thought or experiment. We seem to agree something is there be it a question of mass or gravity. Can we define life as a composite of Higgs? Vague appeal to metalanguage asideL. Edgar Ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525169618204198073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86065936354771474372013-11-28T14:12:25.779-05:002013-11-28T14:12:25.779-05:00Joy,
just out of curiosity: your focus on differe...Joy,<br /><br />just out of curiosity: your focus on different definitions of "local reality" means that you now recognize that your papers didn't prove that Bell's theorem is false?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11453264117086069974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-72984405048854383382013-11-28T12:26:39.124-05:002013-11-28T12:26:39.124-05:00I do not understand superdeterminism and whatever ...I do not understand superdeterminism and whatever little I understand, I have lots of problems with that.If SD is true, don't you think the whole basis of science i.e to set up experiments to find out some truth (may be even tentative)about nature will collapse?kashyap vasavadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10732897306667764590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2681035082107810252013-11-28T04:55:40.997-05:002013-11-28T04:55:40.997-05:00Marco,
If I knew of a good reference, I'd be ...Marco,<br /><br />If I knew of a good reference, I'd be happy to point you towards it, but I don't know one. In fact there seems to be some confusion about exactly what means superdeterminism. So let us forget for a moment what a general definition might be and let me just tell you what I mean. I mean a correlation between the prepared state and the detector. In the derivation of Bell&#Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80449238098824998562013-11-28T04:40:32.187-05:002013-11-28T04:40:32.187-05:00Arun,
I see your point for the explicit example t...Arun,<br /><br />I see your point for the explicit example that they discuss, but in general I'm not sure I know what you mean with 'quantum' here, as everything is 'quantum'. Forget for a moment that the photon flux from distant quasars is not very high and consider it was a really bright source with time-variations in it. You could use the time-variation in the brightness toSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-36697751333335865302013-11-28T02:52:52.380-05:002013-11-28T02:52:52.380-05:00Hi Bee,
As much as I try, I am repeatedly failing...Hi Bee,<br /><br />As much as I try, I am repeatedly failing to understand even the most basic premises of superdeterminism. For example, I am again confused by your comment that uncorrelated choices of detector settings do not test for SD, and so on.<br /><br />Can you please give me some references where SD is explained in enough detail?<br /><br />I'd like to see an argument why SD is vmarkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12660488689205445871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56856390174143210572013-11-28T00:00:31.160-05:002013-11-28T00:00:31.160-05:00Dr. Bee
In so far as we actually have a choice he...Dr. Bee<br /><br />In so far as we actually have a choice here, we are given one between superdeterminism or Bell’s theorem and the oddities of entanglement. Is that a fair statement?<br /><br />Could it also be the case that Bell’s theorem is correct and entanglement is simply a signal that the underlying geometry of spacetime is more ornate than we suppose? I just checked references and I guessDon Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04814669413022486958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51994322546122722102013-11-27T18:36:40.525-05:002013-11-27T18:36:40.525-05:00Joy et al,
From the "outside " an object...Joy et al,<br />From the "outside " an object appears spherical with a possible center. We can imagine the reality of an electron as the old idea of epicycles. So is the issue her how we reduce things to black and white verses say gray groups. If over an interval of infinite set measure the Bell curve encompasses the bell cosmology then all in it is superindeterminism (statistical freeL. Edgar Ottohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525169618204198073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63283143395117092342013-11-27T16:45:00.598-05:002013-11-27T16:45:00.598-05:00Baez and people like me love this one related stuf...Baez and people like me love this one related stuff http://arxiv.org/abs/0803.0913Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942050607289418780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-21732247299850567502013-11-27T14:47:27.176-05:002013-11-27T14:47:27.176-05:00Silly me, I thought this might be about the univer...Silly me, I thought this might be about the universe's inclination to resonate.Don Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04814669413022486958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-20125813189776037162013-11-27T12:58:48.079-05:002013-11-27T12:58:48.079-05:00Dear Bee,
"The two quasars are far apart. Th...Dear Bee,<br /><br /><i>"The two quasars are far apart. They have not had any chance to exchange information. If the quasar signals are used to chose detector settings, then one can be reasonably sure that observed correlations in the measurement do not stem from the detector settings. (If the hidden variables obey locality that is.) "</i><br /><br />The problem I see is that the quasarArunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-24081700557263222372013-11-27T11:18:19.589-05:002013-11-27T11:18:19.589-05:00" you already know that I do not believe in f..."<i> you already know that I do not believe in free will</i>" Shot noise, radioactive decay, glass (physical or spin), turbulence... A determined trajectory for every everything is unimaginable. So? <br /><br />Like Yukawa potentials and epicycles, Bohm has unlimited excuses without discrete solutions. Side effects are parameterized. Cartography falsifies the Shroud of Turin. Uncle Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05056804084187606211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-29590287894561940082013-11-27T10:28:39.204-05:002013-11-27T10:28:39.204-05:00Plato,
The two quasars are far apart. They have n...Plato,<br /><br />The two quasars are far apart. They have not had any chance to exchange information. If the quasar signals are used to chose detector settings, then one can be reasonably sure that observed correlations in the measurement do not stem from the detector settings. (If the hidden variables obey locality that is.) Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-9350965771292040702013-11-27T10:21:20.048-05:002013-11-27T10:21:20.048-05:00Just a question Bee so I understand what you are s...Just a question Bee so I understand what you are saying.<br /><br />Two signals, from different Quasars, not Supernova event, can give rise to the understanding that any signal present in our detectors here on earth, would have trouble determining the entangled state?<br /><br />Best,PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16554587273435863202013-11-27T07:26:40.710-05:002013-11-27T07:26:40.710-05:00Hi Bee,
Nice piece and I do hope someone runs the...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Nice piece and I do hope someone runs the experiment, although I suspect the correlations will hold. I've often wondered what has many so disturbed that nature at its deepest level has an implicate order as David Bohm suggested some years ago, as well as the explicate one being simply emergent from it. <br /><br /><i><b>"In the enfolded [or implicate] order, spacePhil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-88436501328244242712013-11-27T07:22:02.659-05:002013-11-27T07:22:02.659-05:00Phillip,
I looked at Joy's papers some time a...Phillip,<br /><br />I looked at Joy's papers some time ago and I have not and will not post a public opinion for three reasons. First, and most important, it's outside my field of expertise. I don't know what is a good or meaningful definition of local reality and I'm not sure I even care. Second, I'm friends with Joy, I like some of this older work, and I'm clearly biasedSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.com