tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post4850914196796092400..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Intellectual Elitism? You get what you give.Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37091399463967355632009-10-31T02:39:23.018-04:002009-10-31T02:39:23.018-04:00Ivan: I've been in contact with Steve for a wh...Ivan: I've been in contact with Steve for a while, and it's been an interesting and useful exchange. I didn't know the story with intelligent design until somebody pointed me to it. So yes, I recommend you don't dismiss everything somebody says because you didn't like one thing. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62529946078001064522009-10-31T01:48:56.673-04:002009-10-31T01:48:56.673-04:00Steve Fuller? For reals? Perhaps you missed this p...Steve Fuller? For reals? Perhaps you missed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Fuller_%28sociologist%29#Support_of_intelligent_design" rel="nofollow">this part of his wikipedia page</a>.<br /><br />I'm sorry, I'm just a little shocked to see you recommend a guy who's been actively helping the creationists here in the US to push our science education back towards the Dark Ages.IvanMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49204527055546282392009-10-30T07:06:32.451-04:002009-10-30T07:06:32.451-04:00I was going to comment here earlier, but I couldn&...I was going to comment here earlier, but I couldn't decide how to best describe Steve Fuller without invective... Instead I think <a href="http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/10/steve-fuller-sh.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> at The Panda's Thumb says it pretty well.<br /><br />Best,<br />RikardRikardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59099205448783552982009-10-19T01:57:12.817-04:002009-10-19T01:57:12.817-04:00That's a great post.That's a great post.fellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17259462593002235166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-5392707308701859472009-10-17T12:32:05.970-04:002009-10-17T12:32:05.970-04:00Hi Tkk,
Thanks, that is interesting. A question t...Hi Tkk,<br /><br />Thanks, that is interesting. A question that I've been wondering about for a while: Do you think it would be beneficial for academia if some researchers had a training in knowledge management (eg explain them the 20/80 thing and how to use it)? It seems to me one could save a lot of time and confusion already by having people at least trying to identify a problem for not toSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-43308971269105764682009-10-15T22:22:50.097-04:002009-10-15T22:22:50.097-04:00Thanks for the '20/80' numbers for German ...Thanks for the '20/80' numbers for German science funding. (But can't read report.)<br /><br />I learn of the 20/80 phenomenon from attending management training at GE executive school some 2 decades ago, after I was given charge of a research team and a significant budget. In summary here's what they taught me:<br /><br />1) 20/80 is a reflection of basic human group behavior Tkknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56868436442214586622009-10-15T07:35:53.099-04:002009-10-15T07:35:53.099-04:00Forgot: Here's the report. It's in German ...Forgot: <a href="http://www.dfg.de/ranking/ranking2009/download/gesamtbericht.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here's the report. It's in German though.</a>Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41006165371701491212009-10-15T07:35:17.138-04:002009-10-15T07:35:17.138-04:00Hi Tkk,
Here is a PS on the 20/80 rule with some ...Hi Tkk,<br /><br />Here is a PS on the 20/80 rule with some recent numbers. I just came across data about the funding from various sources that went to German universities. From 159 universites, the top 20 (12.5%) got 60% of the funding, the top 30 (18.9%) got 77% of the funding, and the top 40 (25%) got 88% of the funding. So it's pretty close! Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-23166808731292750442009-10-11T07:56:51.670-04:002009-10-11T07:56:51.670-04:00Hi Giotis,
I think we roughly mean the same. What...Hi Giotis,<br /><br />I think we roughly mean the same. What I try to point out is that rarely a research project is simply "I search for extraterrestrial beings" or "Clean energy." In practice, under these overarching goals, there are thousands of very specialized mini-steps whose relevance is very hard to tell for anybody who doesn't have sufficient expertise. What I Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80188814217889417032009-10-11T07:10:43.225-04:002009-10-11T07:10:43.225-04:00The answer is simple I think. The different scient...The answer is simple I think. The different scientific areas will present their work and their objectives to a state committee i.e. the representatives of the people. This committee shall be advised by experts from various disciplines. Depending on the state's wealth, the funds will be distributed based on society's priorities, goals and values. The committee will not impose any Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58686028509311521292009-10-11T06:58:32.122-04:002009-10-11T06:58:32.122-04:00"This whole damn world can fall apart
You'...<i>"This whole damn world can fall apart<br />You'll be ok, follow your heart"</i><br /><br />I think one can be well set in terms of their own fortitude of being, confident, and self motivated, finding that the inherent quest of learning and acquiring knowledge can be needless of secular research and lone wolf expertise and elitism.<br /><br />"That fire" can be somethingPlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15713162054225509362009-10-11T05:42:20.246-04:002009-10-11T05:42:20.246-04:00Hi Giotis,
Well, at the very least you could ask ...Hi Giotis,<br /><br />Well, at the very least you could ask for their research to be of some interest. I suppose understanding religions is in many aspects important to understand history, and that in turn is important to understand present conflicts. But see, that's exactly the point. You don't know what philosophy is good for. I assure you there's millions of people out there who Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42644187829732242412009-10-10T17:44:36.735-04:002009-10-10T17:44:36.735-04:00This makes no sense to me. What kind of "prag...This makes no sense to me. What kind of "pragmatic objectives" can you impose to philosophy, theology or paleontology? On the other hand why disciplines like Biology, Chemistry or Engineering need any new objectives? Their objectives are quite clear and they are very pragmatic. What I mean is that whether a certain discipline has any palpable applications depends on the very nature of Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15127990682139476892009-10-10T07:39:17.774-04:002009-10-10T07:39:17.774-04:00Hi RD,
How would this behaviour separate them fro...Hi RD,<br /><br />How would this behaviour separate them from that of many government bureaucrats or politicians? That which you are describing is what many people think of the value of something that isn’t their own. This has nothing to do with being intellectual, yet rather being instead just another of many thoughtless humans that occupy the planet. <br /><br />As I said before, there Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75498452562210299512009-10-10T07:27:58.364-04:002009-10-10T07:27:58.364-04:00Yes, people have different prejudices when it come...Yes, people have different prejudices when it comes to the alleged elitism of academics, and some of them are even true. However, I clarified explicitly in my post what I was referring to, which was the context in which Corner brought it up, implying that the "intellectual elite" has no desire to be useful for our societies, and thus "pragmatic objectives" have to be imposed Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13782582966068961752009-10-10T06:54:40.437-04:002009-10-10T06:54:40.437-04:00I am an academic economist and can assure you that...I am an academic economist and can assure you that economists are more guilty of elitism than physicists. Every year, first rate physicists publish 2-3 dozen very decent books for educated general readers, and this is something I applaud. Meanwhile, economists cannot be bothered to do anything of the sort. The practical value of a fair bit of the research coming out of my department eludes me.<brRDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-32200308167769793782009-10-10T06:23:03.327-04:002009-10-10T06:23:03.327-04:00Until now I thought that 'Intellectual elitism...Until now I thought that 'Intellectual elitism' was the belief of highly educated people that they are superior and different from the general public. They position themselves at the top of the social pyramid and they think that they are the only ones that have something worth saying about the world in general. The rest should just listen. <br /><br />But I see now that there are lot of Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11102384707312906682009-10-10T04:26:57.098-04:002009-10-10T04:26:57.098-04:00Dear Stefan,
Thanks. Same to you as to Arun: this...Dear Stefan,<br /><br />Thanks. Same to you as to Arun: this was not how Corner referred to the phrase and not what I commented on. I made pretty clear what I was talking about, didn't I? <br /><br /><i> the conviction that academics, if there indeed was such a thing as "academic freedom," would not care whether their work was of any use for the society they live in. They would justSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-82650467846383443172009-10-10T04:22:46.450-04:002009-10-10T04:22:46.450-04:00Dear Bee,
my impression is that "intellectua...Dear Bee,<br /><br />my impression is that "intellectual elitism" (understood as the unwillingness to explain concepts and ideas in way comprehensible to someone not familiar with the field and its jargon) is higher in the humanities than in the natural sciences. This seems to supports your view that it is <i>merely a defense by people ... who have to cope not only with the knowledge stefanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09495628046446378453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-78363841546740207232009-10-09T12:48:52.126-04:002009-10-09T12:48:52.126-04:00I agree with Arun. This kind of 'Intellectual ...I agree with Arun. This kind of 'Intellectual elitism' is the least of my worries. What I really care about is when research has profound implications in real life. It is often the situation where scientists are funded by big corporations and trusts. A number of scientists who betray public's trust, consciously modify the results of their research in order to serve conveniently the Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-61370132335258121872009-10-09T12:12:15.218-04:002009-10-09T12:12:15.218-04:00Dear Arun,
That might indeed be, but this wasn...Dear Arun,<br /><br />That might indeed be, but this wasn't the aspect that Corner was referring to in his comment. He was referring to the "intellectual elite" being allegedly unconcerned about the public good. I was saying that's just a made up justification used to push academics around and discredit their own sense for responsibility and accountability. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-46962546497799165312009-10-09T07:34:42.389-04:002009-10-09T07:34:42.389-04:00Dear Bee,
The attitudes I pointed out may not mea...Dear Bee,<br /><br />The attitudes I pointed out may not mean intellectual elitism to you, but I believe it is those attitudes that bother non-academics and cause them to raise the charge of "intellectual elitism".<br /><br />Best,<br />-ArunArunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-46879913957752275812009-10-09T03:51:12.989-04:002009-10-09T03:51:12.989-04:00Hi Phil,
Yes, I think we're on the same page....Hi Phil,<br /><br />Yes, I think we're on the same page. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-71161703538215126752009-10-09T03:49:26.723-04:002009-10-09T03:49:26.723-04:00Hi Bee,
Yes I know you are most cognisant of this...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Yes I know you are most cognisant of this, perhaps more than anyone else I’ve come across. This is of course becomes most plainly evident in your creation and maintenance of this blog. So yes, also for me it’s not that the ivory tower should be radically altered or raised to the ground, yet be expanded so in future it might be more widely understood, appreciated, welcomed andPhil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79505352738291116632009-10-09T03:40:38.882-04:002009-10-09T03:40:38.882-04:00Dear Arun,
The example you mention has nothing to...Dear Arun,<br /><br />The example you mention has nothing to do neither with intellectualism, nor with academia or elitism. Somebody with that attitude shouldn't be a scientist to begin with, but you find in all areas of human life people who insist on their "theories" of how the world works, and are dismayed if the world doesn't behave accordingly. Many of the people who do Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.com