tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post4625631594658519667..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Can Science Help Solve the Economic Crisis?Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger244125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-35746480254536288472009-08-20T23:39:17.628-04:002009-08-20T23:39:17.628-04:00Philip Meguire again.
The crisis is not the resul...Philip Meguire again.<br /><br />The crisis is not the result of our having been led astray by bad economic thinking. It resulted from a flagrant disregard for elementary economic and legal principles. The latter includes the hoary notion that lenders have a fiduciary duty to those who supply them with funds to lend. <br /><br />The crisis is also grounded in two basic facts about economic Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14303733644223435172009-08-20T23:20:51.826-04:002009-08-20T23:20:51.826-04:00More from Philip Meguire.
The most ardent laiss...More from Philip Meguire.<br /><br /> <br />The most ardent laissez-faire economist or political theorist in fact very much believes in a social practice that is a regulation in all but name: the law of private property and contract. So it is pointless to contrast real world economies with with a pristine unregulated ideal assumed by naive neoclassical theory of a half century ago. What has to beAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-27593668356956827382009-08-20T23:19:35.327-04:002009-08-20T23:19:35.327-04:00I am Philip Meguire, a professional economist who ...I am Philip Meguire, a professional economist who loves contemporary physics. One of my PhD fields was financial economics. I agree with the opinions Michael Shermer and Paul Romer expressed at the end of the article that is the subject of this thread. I am thrilled to discover that people of the calibre of Smolin and the gracious hostess of this blog are taking a serious interest in the world Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85976118984239136392009-03-19T16:52:00.000-04:002009-03-19T16:52:00.000-04:00Also, you can't answer with "It doesn't matter how...Also, you can't answer with "It doesn't matter how, as long as they do."<BR/><BR/>That is not an answer. That does not solve anything. If your girlfriend say you "we need money to have our own house, how can we get it?", are you providing a solution by saying "it doesn't matter how, as long as we get"? That does not make money appear magically.<BR/><BR/>Your answer does not make an evaluation Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41383177288026333902009-03-19T16:26:00.000-04:002009-03-19T16:26:00.000-04:00«How can people evaluate the results? It doesn't m...«How can people evaluate the results? It doesn't matter how, as long as they do.»<BR/><BR/>Yes, it matters if you want to argument in favour of democracy. Because "how" is the difference between a good evaluation and a bad evaluation.<BR/><BR/>And this sort of evaluation involves many people who has to suffer the consequences of a bad evaluation even if their own evaluation is different.<BR/><BR/Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77942552725829175102009-03-08T18:48:00.000-04:002009-03-08T18:48:00.000-04:00Hi Lobogris:(If you're still around. Sorry for the...Hi Lobogris:<BR/><BR/>(If you're still around. Sorry for the delay). There is no inconsistency in what I wrote. When I said it should be addressed by a more scientific approach, I did not mean that everybody who wants to buy a good or vote should study several decades complex systems. In fact, this is exactly what I want to avoid. The neoclassical model builds upon the idea that every household Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-65406848417022117562009-01-28T17:15:00.000-05:002009-01-28T17:15:00.000-05:00errata:Where i said:Its results are easily isolate...errata:<BR/><BR/>Where i said:<BR/><BR/>Its results are easily isolated and immediate.<BR/><BR/>must said:<BR/><BR/>Its causes are easily isolated and its results are immediate.Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16675694680154860342009-01-28T17:13:00.000-05:002009-01-28T17:13:00.000-05:00Hi, Bee, i encounter some inconsistencies in your ...Hi, Bee, i encounter some inconsistencies in your comment.<BR/><BR/>You say:<BR/><BR/>«You don't need to be a 'scientific' person (whatever that means) to have preferences about your life.»<BR/><BR/>But you said before:<BR/><BR/>«Either way, your observation is right, but the actual reason systems are fluctuating is that they have inaccurate memory and an insufficient learning curve. That is Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15026332014525422412009-01-22T16:55:00.000-05:002009-01-22T16:55:00.000-05:00Hi LoboGris,Why don't you try to understand what I...Hi LoboGris,<BR/><BR/>Why don't you try to understand what I am saying before attacking it? None of your arguments even hits the target.<BR/><BR/><I>The fact that you need does not imply the possibility of evaluation. Indeed it is not possible. And YOU think we need one because you assume that a society can and must find a better solution by means of political system. Indeed, that is also false.<Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75924396509229248112009-01-22T13:40:00.000-05:002009-01-22T13:40:00.000-05:00Your argument is that “macro-preferences” are not ...<B>Your argument is that “macro-preferences” are not taken into account by the science of economics.</B><BR/><BR/><I>What I am saying is that de facto people do not express many of their macro-preferences via their economic transactions, and I doubt that it is realistic to assume they will do it.</I><BR/><BR/>How do you know this and why do you think it? It is true that there are no market Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-21471448970932654472009-01-21T20:39:00.000-05:002009-01-21T20:39:00.000-05:00But what if there is no way to evaluate?«That's wh...But what if there is no way to evaluate?<BR/><BR/>«That's why I'm saying we need one.»<BR/><BR/>The fact that you need does not imply the possibility of evaluation. Indeed it is not possible. And YOU think we need one because you assume that a society can and must find a better solution by means of political system. Indeed, that is also false.<BR/><BR/>«Either way, your observation is right, but Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-20789406263029411302009-01-21T19:56:00.000-05:002009-01-21T19:56:00.000-05:00Hi LoboGris,But what if there is no way to evaluat...Hi LoboGris,<BR/><BR/><I>But what if there is no way to evaluate?</I><BR/><BR/>That's why I'm saying we need one.<BR/><BR/><I> If so, you can never find a better solution. </I><BR/><BR/>So we better make sure we have one.<BR/><BR/><I>You are condemned to swing between different flavours of political systems, trying to find a solution but never attaining it.</I><BR/><BR/>Generally, there can be Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-1079747994102134132009-01-21T18:44:00.000-05:002009-01-21T18:44:00.000-05:00«The point is not to find *some* solution that you...«The point is not to find *some* solution that you can push through at whatever cost, but to vary that solution until you find the best one.»<BR/><BR/>But what if there is no way to evaluate? If so, you can never find a better solution. You are condemned to swing between different flavours of political systems, trying to find a solution but never attaining it. And this is actually which occurs inWolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-88657271162216111482009-01-21T17:44:00.000-05:002009-01-21T17:44:00.000-05:00"What you are not understanding is that either the..."What you are not understanding is that either there are no regulations capable of attain those preferences or that no individuals which express those preferences are aware or can be aware or measure the total costs of such regulations."<BR/><BR/>Well that's kind of silly, we aren't even talking about anything specific. I ran small scale and/or short term tests at IBM to determine cost impacts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-65608228897471137072009-01-21T17:09:00.000-05:002009-01-21T17:09:00.000-05:00Hi LoboGris,you are talking about the need to sati...Hi LoboGris,<BR/><BR/><I>you are talking about the need to satisfy some kind of preferences of the majority, at any cost (to minorities, or even to another majority, or even to themselves). </I><BR/><BR/>Why don't you read what I have already told Amos more than two dozen times above, I am really tired of repeating myself. A) Of course there can be costs for working towards their Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-82943192811248969922009-01-21T16:59:00.000-05:002009-01-21T16:59:00.000-05:00Which implies that you can't seriously speak about...Which implies that you can't seriously speak about the need of a given way to express some kind of preference when you are not able to provide a way to evaluate its costs (and hence, its real benefits).Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86138890763531625122009-01-21T16:45:00.000-05:002009-01-21T16:45:00.000-05:00«What I have been saying is people need a way to e...«What I have been saying is people need a way to express what their preferences are, and the economic system does not provide a good way to express all preferences they do have.»<BR/><BR/>What you are not understanding is that either there are no regulations capable of attain those preferences or that no individuals which express those preferences are aware or can be aware or measure the total Wolvh Lórienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00898724608418374747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2995352067738973922009-01-21T16:11:00.000-05:002009-01-21T16:11:00.000-05:00Hi Amos:Your argument is that “macro-preferences” ...Hi Amos:<BR/><BR/><I>Your argument is that “macro-preferences” are not taken into account by the science of economics.</I><BR/><BR/>What I am saying is that de facto people do not express many of their macro-preferences via their economic transactions, and I doubt that it is realistic to assume they will do it. I am thus saying the options are you either just ignore them, which means you are Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-66448746079966905782009-01-21T00:35:00.000-05:002009-01-21T00:35:00.000-05:00Your idealized market in an ideal world with ideal...<I>Your idealized market in an ideal world with ideal people takes care of that. Maybe. But who cares. This world isn't ideal, you can only do as best as you can. That's what I'm trying, whereas you keep insisting on your idealized free-market utopia.</I><BR/><BR/>I never said its utopia. I said that as conclusion of economic science, you can't do better with regulation than the market will do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-87576038582472505012009-01-20T20:07:00.000-05:002009-01-20T20:07:00.000-05:00Hi Bee,Perhaps science can help the sum of our eco...Hi Bee,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps science can help the sum of our economic woes yet first science itself must be saved. In his inaugural address Obama today at least has us believe he may support science being saved when he said:<BR/><BR/>“ We will restore science to its rightful place, and wield technology's wonders to raise health care's quality and lower its cost. We will harness the sun and the winds Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-43625721597092976972009-01-20T19:45:00.000-05:002009-01-20T19:45:00.000-05:00Hi Amos,Gah, I wasn't even finished with your last...Hi Amos,<BR/><BR/>Gah, I wasn't even finished with your last comment. A quick reply to what you just wrote. Saying something is "inevitable" is very different from saying something is "okay". <BR/><BR/><I>My point is that it is impossible to design a political system that accurately distinguishes net-positive regulations from net-negatives, and the market takes care of this automatically.</I><BR/Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59171220926468319862009-01-20T19:25:00.000-05:002009-01-20T19:25:00.000-05:00The point you are criticising about our political ...<I> The point you are criticising about our political systems is that it is possible to push through *some* decision, as long as it has a majority, notwithstanding the question whether that is the best possible option. In fact I am afraid in almost all cases that is not the case. That is exactly the point I am saying must be improved. I don't see why you have a problem with that for it if was Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11443841104452261792009-01-20T15:38:00.000-05:002009-01-20T15:38:00.000-05:00Hi Amos:I quote your response in full because I do...Hi Amos:<BR/><BR/><I>I quote your response in full because I don’t understand a word of it.</I><BR/><BR/>I am genuinely sorry about that. I think we are really talking past each other. Let me try this one more time. What I have been saying is democracy means everybody's opinion, or call it preference, is equally important. When I say I don't want to measure them, that's what I am saying. It's oneSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67259413751785548852009-01-18T19:15:00.000-05:002009-01-18T19:15:00.000-05:00Hi Amos:Obviously, you do not believe that (for ex...Hi Amos:<BR/><BR/><I>Obviously, you do not believe that (for example), “the wealthy” are the sort of minority that is entitled to constitutional protection. </I><BR/><BR/>Obviously you still didn't understand what I mean, for of course "the wealthy" constitute a minority as any other. Whether or not their rights are currently well protected is a different question. Haven't I repeated sufficientlySabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49769325771889723662009-01-18T17:38:00.000-05:002009-01-18T17:38:00.000-05:00One thing I think we don't get over is that you co...<I> One thing I think we don't get over is that you consider a political system, even a democratic one, as something that imposes on people things they don't want. . . . What I have tried to say, maybe not explicitly enough, is that people living under a certain constitution have agreed, (ideally) voluntarily, that this way to organize their lives is one they do accept. They have entered a 'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com