tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post3873468638053341226..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Against MeasureSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80692985261570496182010-04-01T02:49:43.374-04:002010-04-01T02:49:43.374-04:00Winston:
I know. Even in theoretical physics, one...Winston:<br /><br />I know. Even in theoretical physics, ones ability to bring in money matters for tenure. See what's going on here: hiring committees at universities export their judgement to funding agencies. Now funding agencies also don't decide off-hand who gets the bucks, they just mediate a peer-review process. That review process however suffers from many problems (one of which Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51122791765197056662010-04-01T02:23:59.572-04:002010-04-01T02:23:59.572-04:00CIP, Steven, Arun:
Sorry about that. That was a b...CIP, Steven, Arun:<br /><br />Sorry about that. That was a blogger glitch. I prescheduled the post yesterday evening for today, but it went out immediately. (This has happened before.) I can then remove it from the blog, but not from the feeds. I did it anyway, thinking that those of you who use feeds will figure what happened. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-24376659544694943962010-03-31T18:15:21.775-04:002010-03-31T18:15:21.775-04:00The "Baby Universe created in Particle Smashe...The "Baby Universe created in Particle Smasher" needs its diapers changed.Arunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-17329739974263219562010-03-31T17:23:24.761-04:002010-03-31T17:23:24.761-04:00Your webpage doesn't have "Baby Universe ...Your webpage doesn't have "Baby Universe Created in Particle Smasher" even through my blogspot says you created it 4 hours ago. Waiting for April 1st, are we?Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-3343389713744611482010-03-31T17:21:32.608-04:002010-03-31T17:21:32.608-04:00It seems that your "Baby Universe Post" ...It seems that your "Baby Universe Post" has severed its connection with our blogiverse. Sup wit dat?CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13091626129295150332010-03-31T16:25:50.989-04:002010-03-31T16:25:50.989-04:00Hi Bee --
I'm glad you're thinking about...Hi Bee -- <br /><br />I'm glad you're thinking about this so deeply. But I can tell you, that for experimentalists in the US system there is already a firm and quantitative measure that hiring institutions, ie labs and university departments, use to judge scientists' productivity/value: overhead dollars, plain and simple. Anyone's value to the institution is ultimately determinedLathe of Heavenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260699578080545513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80391725866670651262010-03-31T12:26:40.774-04:002010-03-31T12:26:40.774-04:00Hi Bee,
Yes (to everything).
Also, a point that ...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Yes (to everything).<br /><br />Also, a point that I am trying to raise is: maybe it is not only a case for rational analysis, but also an ethical issue at some deeper level.<br /><br />Best,<br />ChristineChristine Cordula Dantashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271747374185459530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-66414246339353911322010-03-31T11:53:52.791-04:002010-03-31T11:53:52.791-04:00Hi Jérôme,
Yes, that's right, that's peer...Hi Jérôme,<br /><br />Yes, that's right, that's peer review. And it's also right that peer review today suffers from a lot of problems. What I am saying is that peer review is in the end the only judgement we have to rely on (if we need a judgement before Nature judges herself, which, in fundamental research, is all the time). Thus, we should make sure that peer review works Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-57278445763317497012010-03-31T11:41:25.605-04:002010-03-31T11:41:25.605-04:00djstrouse:
If somebody can write a computer code...djstrouse: <br /><br />If somebody can write a computer code, somebody else will figure out how to game it. Just look around, this happens all the time and everywhere. What you say simply disregards the way natural selection proceeds and has always proceeded. People learn from their behavior. They adapt accordingly. That research will (and can) simply ignore the metrics is about the last things Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-9648537526917355492010-03-31T11:35:42.390-04:002010-03-31T11:35:42.390-04:00Hi Christine,
That's an interesting way to pu...Hi Christine,<br /><br />That's an interesting way to put it, I think there's a lot of truth to what you're saying. To me the clearest statement is in your sentence<br /><br /><i>The point is: at the forefront of theory there are no guaranties of success anyway! </i><br /><br />Which I tried to express with:<br /><br /><i>You with your science metric, please tell me, how do you know Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15862746049386512052010-03-31T11:25:58.934-04:002010-03-31T11:25:58.934-04:00Very nice post that suggests an interesting yet co...Very nice post that suggests an interesting yet counterintuitive way to look at the future of metrics.<br /><br />You mention that metrics can disturb the research process by incentiving researchers to pursue directions or activities they would not normally favor. Well, what if the metrics themselves are so complicated and weigh so many different factors that, to most individuals, they are djstrousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02210560049416278117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-70809794758681604782010-03-31T11:15:35.497-04:002010-03-31T11:15:35.497-04:00@Christine:
Your analysis in three points is a st...@Christine:<br /><br />Your analysis in three points is a striking demontration of the weaknesses we are talking about. Indeed, those who judge you need simplicity for dealing with your case, as otherwise they could not deal with it. But how to summarize someone in three such points... It's like shooting three photos of Paris, and say showing them to your friend who never got there before: &Jérôme Chauvethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02545307794681614263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-27176937357630938522010-03-31T10:52:55.861-04:002010-03-31T10:52:55.861-04:00Hi again Bee,
Point is, the best way to judge on ...Hi again Bee,<br /><br /><em>Point is, the best way to judge on a human is another human. No, that's not objective, and that's not standardized.</em><br /><br />There, I would say this is what peer-reviewing does, which is precisely what we have for a system at the moment. And the problem with this is all possible conflicts of interest : As an expert, can I judge someone's Jérôme Chauvethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02545307794681614263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-69334910103255972642010-03-31T10:52:39.342-04:002010-03-31T10:52:39.342-04:00I was thinking more about this and, taking some in...I was thinking more about this and, taking some interesting comments here, at the end it seems to me that it's purely and simply about the *measure of a scientist* (A).<br /><br />This is a much deeper question than I came to realize. Clearly, one attaches to that a computation of his/her *output* (B) under some *criteria* (C).<br /><br />Now:<br /><br />(A) is fundamentally unethical IMO!<brChristine Cordula Dantashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05271747374185459530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-44639796546253501812010-03-31T09:41:01.186-04:002010-03-31T09:41:01.186-04:00Hi Phil,
"I would say however it not resulta...Hi Phil,<br /><br /><i>"I would say however it not resultant solely as Pirsig contends, that it is intentionally ignored, yet rather never has been widely understood as to be appreciated."</i><br /><br />Yes. That's why I keep talking about it... Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-48139363726567621762010-03-31T09:38:18.614-04:002010-03-31T09:38:18.614-04:00Hi Jérôme,
Thanks for sharing your experience, th...Hi Jérôme,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your experience, that's interesting. Yes, metrics do restrict a very large or possibly infinite amount of factors down to a few. This creates two problems. The first is that to make metrics better you have to include more and more data and make this data more and more refined. That's already bad because it takes up more and more time and more and Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-43199293600391874552010-03-31T09:03:02.426-04:002010-03-31T09:03:02.426-04:00Hi Arun,
Yes, I agree. As I said in my post, it d...Hi Arun,<br /><br />Yes, I agree. As I said in my post, it depends on the field, and in many (I'm tempted to say most) cases my sense is metrics won't do much harm but instead improve objectivity. I was just saying the one-size-fits all approach can do harm in some cases, so better move carefully and identify these cases first. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-39176515698393315962010-03-31T08:48:24.917-04:002010-03-31T08:48:24.917-04:00Hi Bee,
A large part of expenditures on science a...Hi Bee,<br /><br />A large part of expenditures on science are on things like the CERN accelerator, large telescopes, spacecraft instrumentation and so on. Or the human genome project. While you might count these more as engineering than science, nevertheless these programs have to be run with some metrics. <br /><br />So some scientific expenditures have to have metrics attached. Likewise in Arunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-61790012885310110992010-03-31T07:17:18.043-04:002010-03-31T07:17:18.043-04:00Hi Bee,
Oh my dear, wonderful post! It's like...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Oh my dear, wonderful post! It's like reading my own mind when reading it. Thank you for writing it.<br /><br />It reminds me of my own experience when I was looking for a PhD grant (back in 2004). After months of prospection, I finally found a laboratory in Grenoble that was interested in me, with a research project dealing with Drosophila, i.e., the fruit fly. They asked Jérôme Chauvethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02545307794681614263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6954301430565505582010-03-31T06:07:29.433-04:002010-03-31T06:07:29.433-04:00Hi Bee,
”Yes, I agree with you. I find it somewh...Hi Bee,<br /><br /><br /><i>”Yes, I agree with you. I find it somewhat depressing that the problem is so obvious, yet still persists.”</i><br /><br /><br />Yes isn’t it curious that despite the words and thoughts of those like Socrates, Plato, Arisitole, Descartes, Einstein and more recently Pirsig, that all this still goes for the most part largely unheeded. I would say however it not resultantPhil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-18335733958981248162010-03-31T04:55:22.306-04:002010-03-31T04:55:22.306-04:00Hi Christine,
Yes, I agree with you. I find it so...Hi Christine,<br /><br />Yes, I agree with you. I find it somewhat depressing that the problem is so obvious, yet still persists. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-29729976837380282342010-03-31T02:13:48.365-04:002010-03-31T02:13:48.365-04:00Try this link Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainte...Try this link <a href="http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/" rel="nofollow">Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance </a>PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-66360647897696061052010-03-31T02:08:46.944-04:002010-03-31T02:08:46.944-04:00Hi Phil,
There is no doubt in my mind as to the p...Hi Phil,<br /><br />There is no doubt in my mind as to the path these two are walking have been walked before. I would even suspect the "older generation" was once young :)and they too tried to break free from the constraints that seemed insurmountable for their starting adventures.<br /><br />So what's changed?<br /><br />There is more accountability now that technology has made itPlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-72798421580770760832010-03-30T21:31:57.563-04:002010-03-30T21:31:57.563-04:00Hi Plato,
I would agree that both Bee’s and Chris...Hi Plato,<br /><br />I would agree that both Bee’s and Christine’s position essentially rests with the recognition that quality simply can’t be quantified, yet rather is recognized almost simply instinctively and really can’t have a metric applied to it at all. This of course was Pirsig’s central premise and interestingly he initially was to consider this as he was first aspired to science as a Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-44011125924455833312010-03-30T21:24:39.667-04:002010-03-30T21:24:39.667-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.com