tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post3336437230446085449..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Who wants tenure anyway?Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64854691498663438132009-06-28T10:32:16.979-04:002009-06-28T10:32:16.979-04:00Hi Thomas,
You as another commenter previously ar...Hi Thomas,<br /><br />You as another commenter previously are confusing two different things. There is a lack of positions generally. That makes tenure especially appealing. But is tenure the cure? Is it the only cure? Certainly it would also ameliorate the problem you're mentioning if there where more positions generally. <br /><br />It is of course true that we're producing too many Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-28302425653228396222009-06-27T19:52:10.266-04:002009-06-27T19:52:10.266-04:00Hi Daniel,
“So, basic supply dictates that life i...Hi Daniel,<br /><br />“So, basic supply dictates that life is very difficult for anyone entering the field.”<br /><br />This argument only holds if graduates and the powers that be continue to limit themselves as to what constitutes being demand and those who produce them to where they might be most needed. If the whole world is considered as the potential market, then it is quickly realized a Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13616102833529478382009-06-27T17:18:30.558-04:002009-06-27T17:18:30.558-04:00@Thomas
I am not sure who bemoans the move away ...@Thomas <br /><br />I am not sure who bemoans the move away from the tenure model. I am not aware of any such move.<br /><br />As for how difficult it is, consider that each professor trains several, sometimes dozens, of Ph.D. students. All of them smart and interesting in their own way. Funding is also directed toward training more and more Ph.D. students. This ensures that the supply of new Daniel Lemirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01566622051558391310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-18364856787246544272009-06-27T14:09:18.923-04:002009-06-27T14:09:18.923-04:00I am a physics and math double major in univeristy...I am a physics and math double major in univeristy right now about to enter my sophomore year. I have personally found that research is one of the most rewarding ways I could spend my time. However, in talking with various professors around my department, the universal tone is 'Don't go into academia.' or even 'Don't major in physics.' Which is extremely unfortunate. They Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15232439949053726763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-72333142153287820982009-06-26T01:14:31.626-04:002009-06-26T01:14:31.626-04:00In Sweden it is quite difficult to fire professors...In Sweden it is quite difficult to fire professors because of misconduct. I have heard of three cases where univerities have tried:<br /><br />1. One law professor whose lectures was allegedly spiced with nazi propaganda.<br /><br />2. One professor who didn't show up in the department for two years, because she turned out to have another job in France.<br /><br />3. One professor who gave Thomas Larssonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31601048658624535212009-06-25T15:26:28.264-04:002009-06-25T15:26:28.264-04:00Yes, unfortunately, Rancourt did lose his job.
We...Yes, unfortunately, Rancourt did lose his job.<br /><br />We may argue that he was doing his job poorly. This can be debated. But he was teaching with conviction and doing state-of-the-art research. He was always working at one of the largest Canadian University. He was a full professor with tenure.<br /><br />He lost his job. Hence, tenure hardly makes you unfirable. I certainly could be fired. Daniel Lemirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01566622051558391310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80823798653311332042009-06-25T15:15:21.782-04:002009-06-25T15:15:21.782-04:00Hi Bee,
Yes I understand, we have a similar situa...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Yes I understand, we have a similar situation in my country where Police is not allowed to enter in a University for any reason at all practically. It is an asylum. That's because during the students' revolution against the dictatorship back in the 1970s the army invaded the Athens polytechnic school with tanks. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-D52YlSwE0&Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16844764479790911432009-06-25T14:14:29.083-04:002009-06-25T14:14:29.083-04:00Hi Giotis,
I don't know, I'm not a lawyer...Hi Giotis,<br /><br />I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. There are ways to lose your position though, most notably 'Staatsverat', basically passing on secrets to foreign spies. It's kind of obvious if you consider that you're formally employed by the state, not by the university. I guess the Germans are vary of removing profs from their positions because the Nazis tried to Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59155940885773900412009-06-25T09:53:18.617-04:002009-06-25T09:53:18.617-04:00I am sorry, but at least in Canada, tenure profess...I am sorry, but at least in Canada, tenure professors can and are fired all the time.<br /><br />Read up on the Rancourt case: not only was he fired, but he was also banned from campus.<br /><br />See:<br />http://www.daniel-lemire.com/blog/archives/2009/01/13/must-a-professor-grade-his-students/<br /><br />(And his "crime" was not that he was lazy. He was and still is one of the top Daniel Lemirehttp://www.daniel-lemire.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77785345232824211362009-06-24T22:13:40.250-04:002009-06-24T22:13:40.250-04:00Pope: "More macho types like tkk are welcome ...Pope: "More macho types like tkk are welcome to go in for commodity trading, bullfighting etc."<br /><br />I am not that macho. ;-)<br />I went to work for IBM Research and helped develop the the protocols, algorithms and distributed network architecture that forms the basis of today's Internet and web services. <br /><br />I was only 2 hrs away from Wall Street but did resist Tkknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6127137447247544842009-06-24T21:32:12.951-04:002009-06-24T21:32:12.951-04:00I think the situation in Germany is indeed extreme...I think the situation in Germany is indeed extreme. In the US, you can certainly be fired from a tenured job if, for example, your entire department is dissolved. This does happen.<br /><br />In most places, tenured professors can be fired for sufficiently egregious misbehaviour. A full professor of dentistry was fired here for having sex with a student whose career was under his control. As Pope Maledict XVInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89358431411938506292009-06-24T14:35:22.773-04:002009-06-24T14:35:22.773-04:00Daniel: "Aren't we exaggerating a little ...Daniel: "Aren't we exaggerating a little bit?"<br /><br />No. When tenure means *absolutely* one cannot be fired, not even by the king (quote Bee), then that represent an extremism. Absolutely no removal means absolutely no accountability. That may be the way it was back in the 17th century, when the tenure system was created by the most elite of society, but open societies of todayTkknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50275076869513096082009-06-24T12:21:47.416-04:002009-06-24T12:21:47.416-04:00In practice tenure is on the decline, but not abou...In practice tenure is on the decline, but not about to disappear. Universities have effectively adopted a two-tier system. The first tier is made up of tenured professors who are being hired because they either bring in more money than they cost, or because the university needs to protect or improve its academic ranking in order to compete for students. The second tier is non-tenured adjuncts/Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52151026701608064862009-06-24T12:12:27.112-04:002009-06-24T12:12:27.112-04:00@Bee: thanks for your comment!
@Daniel Lemire: co...@Bee: thanks for your comment!<br /><br />@Daniel Lemire: computer science is somewhat exceptional because with the PhD in CS you indeed can get a very decent industry job. However, this is less applicable to, say, theoretical physicists or mathematicians (in fact, Ph.D. in these fields apparently could make you overqualified for a number of jobs), so I wonder to which extent your statement aboutSuccessful Researcherhttp://aclinks.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31882251374514454272009-06-24T11:33:24.519-04:002009-06-24T11:33:24.519-04:00What if you kill someone and you go to prison for ...What if you kill someone and you go to prison for the rest of your natural life? Then what? You'll retain your tenure position?Giotisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15429715707501031132009-06-24T10:58:17.482-04:002009-06-24T10:58:17.482-04:00Dear Christine,
Well, I suppose Germany is somewh...Dear Christine,<br /><br />Well, I suppose Germany is somewhat extreme in that regard, but if you're a tenured prof you can't be fired. That means literally you can't be fired. They can force to you relocate elsewhere if you're great pain for your department but you can't be fired. Not by the dean of the department, not by the president of the university, not by the pope and Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11932052569839091562009-06-24T10:10:30.489-04:002009-06-24T10:10:30.489-04:00Hi Bee,
Would you please explain to me the exact ...Hi Bee,<br /><br />Would you please explain to me the exact difference between "tenure" and "permanent position"?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Christine<br />PS- As you know, I have a stable, "permanent position" in a government (military) institute in Brazil, but not in my area of interest. I think my situation is too much atypical to offer any valuable comment, but I Christinehttp://egregium.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-22509483081250998232009-06-24T09:23:31.710-04:002009-06-24T09:23:31.710-04:00Hi,
We have just added your latest post "Bac...Hi,<br /><br />We have just added your latest post "Backreaction: Who wants tenure anyway?" to our <a href="http://www.scienz.info" rel="nofollow"> Directory of Science </a> . You can check the inclusion of the post <a href="http://www.scienz.info/story.php?title=backreaction-who-wants-tenure-anyway" rel="nofollow"> here </a> . We are delighted to invite you to submit all your future Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59877853753566904392009-06-24T09:17:29.188-04:002009-06-24T09:17:29.188-04:00@Tkk
Aren't we exaggerating a little bit?
...@Tkk <br /><br /><br />Aren't we exaggerating a little bit?<br /><br />I have tenure:<br /><br />*) Compared to other people my age, my net worth is far lower. In real-life, this means that my house, my car, and my TV are smaller, than many people who didn't even get a college education. I do not deny that I am privileged, but that is only because I am free to pursue my research Daniel Lemirehttp://www.daniel-lemire.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64576196168748869402009-06-24T08:41:57.417-04:002009-06-24T08:41:57.417-04:00Bee: “I wanted to be a physicist.”
And as a resul...Bee: “I wanted to be a physicist.”<br /><br />And as a result you're a blogger, how life is unpredictable! :) Indeed, it would be a nightmare for a physicist to deal with pure abstractions that cannot explain anything new in increasingly “dark” and puzzling real world structure and dynamics for decades and show no perspective for it... By the way, what are you working upon now, as a physicistAndrei Kirilyukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15407274342959324969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-18663567409996073412009-06-24T08:19:13.648-04:002009-06-24T08:19:13.648-04:00Tkk said: "But in real life there is no guara...Tkk said: "But in real life there is no guarantee for *any* job. "<br /><br />Actually the opposite is true. Civil servants usually have something equivalent to tenure, or better. Most people working for large companies effectively have tenure. There's nothing whatever unusual about tenure.<br /><br />When people talk about firing academics for underperforming, I assume that they Pope Maledict XVInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37225797823626990242009-06-24T07:49:20.005-04:002009-06-24T07:49:20.005-04:00Tkk: I had no clue what either the word postdoc no...Tkk: I had no clue what either the word postdoc nor tenure means before I started my PhD. I wanted to be a physicist. I didn't spend much time thinking about career paths.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-73658919851337417882009-06-24T07:49:15.352-04:002009-06-24T07:49:15.352-04:00Hi Bee,
From my own perspective where tenure is ...Hi Bee,<br /><br /><br />From my own perspective where tenure is concerned there are two principle aspects to it. That is one being security and the other reward. In the everyday world most of what people do to guarantee security through the course of the day has little to do with the reward(s) they covet; which are for the most part afforded them by the money they make in the course of Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-65781744477132255302009-06-24T07:41:08.091-04:002009-06-24T07:41:08.091-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-35196467462361890082009-06-24T03:28:16.679-04:002009-06-24T03:28:16.679-04:00Bee, you surely must know how the postdoc & te...Bee, you surely must know how the postdoc & tenure systems work before you plunged into PhD work. Are you having some regrets because you seem not to fully accept the 'defective' system you find yourself. <br /><br />My view is the tenure system is a distortion of life granted to the privileged. Sort of like a mandarin in the Soviet Union. Tenure guarantees job safety. But in real Tkknoreply@blogger.com