tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post2447858551783785466..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Particle physicists want money for bigger colliderSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger250125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-69420650277711888632019-06-09T21:00:35.167-04:002019-06-09T21:00:35.167-04:00totally worhtless,as the science/physic itselftotally worhtless,as the science/physic itselfstefano petrinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16277617552688958924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-22006932636347248832019-02-02T19:22:48.508-05:002019-02-02T19:22:48.508-05:00Professor Mikhail Shaposhnikov's nuMSM theory ...Professor Mikhail Shaposhnikov's nuMSM theory sounds very interesting because of its inclusion of right-handed neutrinos. I just found his 2013 paper at the arXiv, though haven't read it yet. Over the past month, or so, I was attempting to incorporate right-handed neutrinos into an old model from some years ago, that dealt with neutrino interactions. Admittedly, it's an amateur David Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18048116250413347228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59597736707415606352019-01-27T13:21:26.299-05:002019-01-27T13:21:26.299-05:00Frederic wrote: I and others in this threat have r...Frederic wrote: I and others in this threat have repeated many times that the primary goal of a FCC would be measurements of the Higgs sector. If you want to ignore this then I don't see the point of this discussion.<br /><br />If the FCC was being marketed with the specific goal of getting "more details about the Higgs," and if there was no misleading hype about what else it might Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67849743690864838822019-01-27T08:23:52.858-05:002019-01-27T08:23:52.858-05:00"I am saying don't try to smuggle the $21..."I am saying don't try to smuggle the $21B discovery potential in under a $10B price tag. "<br /><br />Honestly, I don't think the CDR is attempting anything like this. We are talking about two potential new colliders which are described in independent volumes of the CDR including their physics reach. Personally, I am very happy CERN is now seemingly going in the e+e- direction.Mogenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06003678482476604687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49688306383849434032019-01-27T08:22:34.695-05:002019-01-27T08:22:34.695-05:00Sabine,
"No one besides particle physicists ...Sabine,<br /><br /><i>"No one besides particle physicists gives a crap about the self-coupling of the Higgs."</i><br /><br />Whether measurements of the Higgs couplings captures people's attention is pretty much irrelevant to the physics case. If you are telling me that that the FCC should not be sold as a fantastic discovery machine that is guaranteed to find signals of BSM, I Frederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-54276104991508068802019-01-27T07:25:06.460-05:002019-01-27T07:25:06.460-05:00Mogens,
"Arguing against the e+e- collider o...Mogens,<br /><br /><i>"Arguing against the e+e- collider on the grounds..."</i><br /><br />Not what I said. I am saying don't try to smuggle the $21B discovery potential in under a $10B price tag. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41212151454374346382019-01-27T05:19:55.398-05:002019-01-27T05:19:55.398-05:00Sabine,
Well, well, there will be some 30 years b...Sabine,<br /><br />Well, well, there will be some 30 years between the two decisions have to be made. Arguing against the e+e- collider on the grounds that the particle physics community then will come back some decades later with an even bigger request is kind-of weird.Mogenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06003678482476604687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11204854141139496762019-01-27T01:13:08.457-05:002019-01-27T01:13:08.457-05:00Mogens,
Particle physicists' trying to break ...Mogens,<br /><br />Particle physicists' trying to break down the total $21B into two parts and requesting I mention only the cost for the first step is an attempt at deceit, trying to make it sound less costly than it is. You know as well as I do that once they've put in $11B into the first step then not finding anything will make it *more* likely they'll finance the next step. That&#Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86937378510862269292019-01-27T01:01:06.844-05:002019-01-27T01:01:06.844-05:00Frederic,
"you can't just pick out the o...Frederic,<br /><br /><i>"you can't just pick out the one you dislike the most and write op-eds about how we are attempting to scam the public for money yet again"</i><br /><br />No one besides particle physicists gives a crap about the self-coupling of the Higgs. What captures people's attention is the potential for new breakthroughs. I give them the information they most need. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-9513312706730387622019-01-26T15:27:03.604-05:002019-01-26T15:27:03.604-05:00Sabine,
You have your opinion, I have mine. Good ...Sabine,<br /><br />You have your opinion, I have mine. Good so.<br /><br />However, should we not agree to be more clear about the numbers we quote. In https://cds.cern.ch/record/2653673 page 15 there is a breakdown of the cost. On page 14 there is the time line.<br /><br />Now, it is clear that one does not have to take decision about the complete package at this time. Following the time line, Mogenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06003678482476604687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-68461452099254177862019-01-26T14:00:40.750-05:002019-01-26T14:00:40.750-05:00Sabine,
To me it would be motivation enough, but ...Sabine,<br /><br />To me it would be motivation enough, but as I have said previously, I can see how one might reasonably disagree. Note also that the price tag you quote is for a hadron collider, and currently the plan would be to start with an e+e- collider which would be half that (and focused on Higgs measurements rather than exploring new particles at the energy frontier). So one could also Frederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63513397856823853992019-01-26T12:19:36.464-05:002019-01-26T12:19:36.464-05:00Frederic,
"But I do not see how that has any...Frederic,<br /><br /><i>"But I do not see how that has any bearing on the motivation for the next collider."</i><br /><br />If you want to argue that measuring SM processes in more detail is sufficient motivation to spend $21 billion, it has no bearing. <br /><br />If you, on the other hand, want to claim that the FCC has the potential to answer some big questions, you just lost the Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-3720611790532507852019-01-26T11:21:32.770-05:002019-01-26T11:21:32.770-05:00Sabine,
You are definitely not giving a fair desc...Sabine,<br /><br />You are definitely not giving a fair description of the FCC case, which I am guessing is because you don't think Higgs measurements are worth much. The next paragraph of the document you quote continues with <i>"this collider will also precisely measure the Higgs self-coupling and thoroughly explore the dynamics of electroweak symmetry breaking at the TeV scale, to Frederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63282017588981042882019-01-26T08:50:47.737-05:002019-01-26T08:50:47.737-05:00Frederic,
I am not "spinning" anything....Frederic,<br /><br />I am not "spinning" anything. I have quoted the opening paragraph of the document and explained why it is misleading. Your "primary gripe" with me seems to be that I point out we have no reason to think the FCC will answer any of the mentioned "big questions". <br /><br />(Sorry, I must have forgotten to publish your earlier comment, it should Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85448765163305952742019-01-26T08:24:44.130-05:002019-01-26T08:24:44.130-05:00Sabine,
I mean, I can somewhat understand where y...Sabine,<br /><br />I mean, I can somewhat understand where you are coming from but to me it is a false premise. Dark matter searches and quantum gravity experiments get plenty of funding and particle physics does not come at their detriment. We do not know where the next discovery will come from, and expectations of what is the most promising avenue are not grounded on a basis any more solid thanFrederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14420689449550189602019-01-25T23:22:27.305-05:002019-01-25T23:22:27.305-05:00Frederic,
"The only way to do any kind of co...Frederic,<br /><br /><i>"The only way to do any kind of comparative evaluation is to attach some expectation or likelihood of discovery..."</i><br /><br />What I am saying is this. In a quantative cost-benefit estimate the FCC would come out to have value X. Since particle colliders are currently the most expensive experiments, any other experiment that has a greater potential for Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67204284676803945812019-01-25T17:56:19.034-05:002019-01-25T17:56:19.034-05:00Sabine wrote: Cowan and Reines had a good reason t...Sabine wrote: Cowan and Reines had a good reason to look for what they were looking for. Yes, persistence is a virtue. <br /><br />Indeed, and that was the entire purpose of the experiment. No "overly optimistic" marketing claims were employed to sell the experiment.<br /><br />Interestingly, one plan for the experiment involving an atomic bomb was scuttled. Cowan and Reines settled forSteven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51564635814852127922019-01-25T16:26:23.661-05:002019-01-25T16:26:23.661-05:00Frederic wrote (to Sabine): You are certainly allo...Frederic wrote (to Sabine): You are certainly allowed to have that opinion . . .<br /><br />First I'll say <i>of course</i> that's her opinion and <i>of course</i> she's "allowed" to have an opinion. <br /><br />Second, you neglected the entire context of this discussion. Big, expensive public projects, such as colliders, need to have <i>some</i> kind of justification. Even Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15953540624166636632019-01-25T15:15:07.458-05:002019-01-25T15:15:07.458-05:00Rob wrote: No amount of money would have produced ...Rob wrote: No amount of money would have produced radio and television broadcasts without the purely fundamental research of Maxwell.<br /><br />I'm not sure what your point is. Maxwell was a genius in multiple fields and he had a very productive career at various universities. Did you get the impression I'm opposed to that? <br /><br />Rob wrote: Without the space race, would there be Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64393563867558410132019-01-25T12:17:18.596-05:002019-01-25T12:17:18.596-05:00Sabine,
"I didn't say anything like that...Sabine,<br /><br /><i>"I didn't say anything like that. I offered a comparative evaluation. Other experimental avenues are less costly and more promising, hence let's do those first."</i><br /><br />The only way to do any kind of comparative evaluation is to attach some expectation or likelihood of discovery, which in my opinion is close to impossible and almost guaranteed to beFrederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77807927201608614912019-01-25T11:59:28.836-05:002019-01-25T11:59:28.836-05:00Frederic,
"You are saying the likelihood of ...Frederic,<br /><br /><i>"You are saying the likelihood of finding anything new at a larger collider is low enough that it does not warrant trying, which is practically the same thing."</i><br /><br />I didn't say anything like that. I offered a comparative evaluation. Other experimental avenues are less costly and more promising, hence let's do those first. <br /><br /><i>"Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84861229898201807732019-01-25T09:44:31.827-05:002019-01-25T09:44:31.827-05:00Sabine,
"I did not say there is nothing to b...Sabine,<br /><br /><i>"I did not say there is nothing to be found, not here and not elsewhere. I said there is no good reason to think something should be found."</i><br /><br />You are saying the likelihood of finding anything new at a larger collider is low enough that it does not warrant trying, which is practically the same thing. <br /><br />Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as Frederic Dreyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11829777910386819791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-47900611697280214552019-01-25T08:41:07.196-05:002019-01-25T08:41:07.196-05:00Lawrence,
Cowan and Reines had a good reason to l...Lawrence,<br /><br />Cowan and Reines had a good reason to look for what they were looking for. Yes, persistence is a virtue. So is learning from past mistakes.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31896871952370574072019-01-24T20:59:51.493-05:002019-01-24T20:59:51.493-05:00Taylor wrote: War is extremely costly for most, an...Taylor wrote: War is extremely costly for most, and obscenely profitable for a few. So, position yourself to finance both sides in a war.<br /><br />I learned that lesson for the first time in the 1960's when I read Gone With the Wind. Rhett Butler didn't give a damn about a lot of things. Fiction is undervalued. :-)Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-17220819536455305282019-01-24T20:52:11.710-05:002019-01-24T20:52:11.710-05:00Phillip wrote: At least you think that I am reason...Phillip wrote: At least you think that I am reasonable, but please don't caricature my position.<br /><br />Fair enough. Instead of caricature, let's have a serious discussion. <br /><br />Phillip wrote: It is silly to argue against a project because it sounds expensive when one quotes the price tag being borne by dozens of countries over a few decades.<br /><br />Here's the rub: It&Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.com