tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post9172627388317807857..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: WithdrawalSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56419738036265339072009-06-21T10:14:38.992-04:002009-06-21T10:14:38.992-04:00Concerning the comments by K. Krogh on the "c...Concerning the comments by K. Krogh on the "comic" paper(s) by L. Iorio on the test of the Lense-Thirring effect with the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) in the gravitational field of Mars,<br />the reply by Iorio to Krogh, is in print on the peer-reviewed journal Central European Journal of Physics (CEJP), after it was already accepted in the past by Journal of Gravitational Physics (JGP) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6188667908491199742007-08-25T05:54:00.000-04:002007-08-25T05:54:00.000-04:00Hi CIP, looks like that quote by Niels Bohr might ...Hi CIP, looks like that quote by Niels Bohr might be the inspiration behind Wolfgang Pauli's "not even wrong"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-29851089419142428022007-08-24T14:25:00.000-04:002007-08-24T14:25:00.000-04:00How about this setup. It is possible to withdraw a...<I>How about this setup. It is possible to withdraw a paper with the following result: the paper and all previous versions remain on the arxiv, but if you decide to withdraw it does not re-appear in the listing, and does not show up any longer in the usual search.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that could work. My problem was to avoid editor-required withdrawal.Alejandro Riverohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181521111080562335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-4605443976783089522007-08-24T09:39:00.000-04:002007-08-24T09:39:00.000-04:00Hi Prof Anonymous: Forgot to mentionSomething to b...Hi Prof Anonymous: <BR/><BR/>Forgot to mention<BR/><BR/><I>Something to bear in mind: you may think that a paper is wrong, but the author may not agree. He is entitled to his opinion. </I><BR/><BR/>Sure. I am aware that in case of a disagreement it might very well be (in fact is likely) that I am wrong and the author is right. There are plenty of unsettled arguments of all kinds around there. TheSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63454817649095664622007-08-24T09:32:00.000-04:002007-08-24T09:32:00.000-04:00Hi Prof. Anonymous:You have understood me correctl...Hi Prof. Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>You have understood me correctly. I cite papers that I used as a prerequisite for a calculation, as well as those who get credits for ideas that were not my own. I usually need more than 6 months to write a paper, so I just don't have citations younger than that. (The possible exception would be if I got scooped on a paper, luckily this has never happened.) I try to Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-17565637148898646072007-08-24T08:36:00.000-04:002007-08-24T08:36:00.000-04:00Bee,A lot of good reasons have been mentioned for ...Bee,<BR/><BR/>A lot of good reasons have been mentioned for not allowing papers to be withdrawn. I like this one due to Neils Bohr:<BR/><I>Theoretical physicists have an important advantage over philosophers. We have all written papers that were subsequently proved to be wrong.</I>CapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64550435597272133862007-08-24T06:39:00.000-04:002007-08-24T06:39:00.000-04:00Dear Bee, I clearly agree with your general point,...Dear Bee, <BR/><BR/>I clearly agree with your general point, assuming that it is yours, that there exist all kinds of pressures on people to hide changes, hide errors they have found, change how the history actually looked like, and so forth.<BR/><BR/>Clearly, some people are more likely to act dishonestly and some people are less likely to do so. Someone who tries to design optimal policies for Luboš Motlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17487263983247488359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76525277338122694602007-08-24T03:50:00.000-04:002007-08-24T03:50:00.000-04:00Should people be allowed to withdraw their papers ...Should people be allowed to withdraw their papers from the arXiv if they were caught having <A HREF="http://arxiv.org/find/all/1/abs:+plagiarism/0/1/0/all/0/1" REL="nofollow">plagiarized</A> them? I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>In general I'm in favor of having the arXiv be a permanent record. I always submit replacement versions of my papers when I discover mistakes in them. If it means people John Baezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11573268162105600948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89092827688617559502007-08-24T00:19:00.000-04:002007-08-24T00:19:00.000-04:00"I cite very very rarely non-published papers that..."I cite very very rarely non-published papers that are on the arxiv only"<BR/><BR/>Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying in effect that you never cite any paper that is less than about 6 months old. That seems very extreme indeed! I think that you are placing WAY too much faith in the refereeing process. I, and I think a *lot* of people, find referee reports uniformly Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-10721683650683460632007-08-23T23:03:00.000-04:002007-08-23T23:03:00.000-04:00Dear Eric Gisse,Glad you got a laugh out of that "...Dear Eric Gisse,<BR/><BR/>Glad you got a laugh out of that "high-accuracy measurement." A similar <A HREF="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0606092" REL="nofollow">paper</A> by the same author, claiming 6% accuracy, was published in <I>Classical and Quantum Gravity</I> last year. This one was a follow-on.<BR/><BR/>Concerning my own <A HREF="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9910325" REL="nofollowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76819784463566127742007-08-23T16:07:00.000-04:002007-08-23T16:07:00.000-04:00Hi Quasar,The problem as Stefan pointed out is tha...Hi Quasar,<BR/><BR/><I>The problem as Stefan pointed out is that then you may not wish to refer or link to a paper, because that paper could be altered ...</I><BR/><BR/>And as I've answered above, this is a misunderstanding, I'm not talking about changing anything about keeping and tracing the paper versions on the arxiv unless withdrawn. Papers submitted on the arxiv can be altered already. WhatSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-17322059820643900012007-08-23T14:49:00.000-04:002007-08-23T14:49:00.000-04:00"If everybody who realizes a mistake in his paper ...<EM>"If everybody who realizes a mistake in his paper would add a note on that, that would be fine with me, no problem there. This would indeed be the ideal scenario I'd envision." </EM><BR/><BR/>Bee, I agree<BR/><BR/>The problem as Stefan pointed out is that then you may not wish to refer or link to a paper, because that paper could be altered ...<BR/><BR/>you are suggesting that if the QUASAR9https://www.blogger.com/profile/00593390598251093182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6783090056335120452007-08-23T12:37:00.000-04:002007-08-23T12:37:00.000-04:00Hi Neil, Hi Carl,Regarding uploading papers on the...Hi Neil, Hi Carl,<BR/><BR/>Regarding uploading papers on the arxiv. Since a couple of years the arxiv asks for endorsement of new users. I don't know how this process looks from the user's side since I've been registered at the arXiv before they introduced this procedure. By now I have occasionally been asked to endorse somebody's submission. I don't know how it works for students or so, I Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-19565141233426987952007-08-23T12:04:00.000-04:002007-08-23T12:04:00.000-04:00Hi Dylan:I am shocked by this behaviour if it's re...Hi Dylan:<BR/><BR/><I>I am shocked by this behaviour if it's really as described, and I think that the perpetrators should be publically mocked. (There's some embarassment in having a withdrawn paper on the arXiv, so your task is to make the embarassment of not correcting the error worse...) I don't think the arXiv itself should have much to do with it, though; perserving the history is vital.</ISabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34255063657744253042007-08-23T11:35:00.000-04:002007-08-23T11:35:00.000-04:00Hi Quasar,I know that Stefan and other commenters ...Hi Quasar,<BR/><BR/>I know that Stefan and other commenters above mention the most obvious argument against withdrawal. I am just puzzled that everybody honks the same horn there? You say, <I>it also means no wrong and erroneous information is lost either</I> - the problem is exactly to trace which articles turn out to be wrong and erroneous. <BR/><BR/>If everybody who realizes a mistake in his Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-32197791744982379332007-08-23T11:34:00.000-04:002007-08-23T11:34:00.000-04:00The Nordtvedt effect (lunar laser ranging) is a po...The Nordtvedt effect (lunar laser ranging) is a potent Equivalence Principle test. Return to Luna to plant a perfect field of optimized retroreflector arrays.<BR/><BR/>Can biology source a parity Nordtvedt effect? Earth masses 5.97x10^24 kg. Living matter masses 1.15x10^16 kg, mostly achiral water. Protein L-amino acids but D-sugars. A 5x10^(-10) active mass fraction - as good as Weak Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-59936818237688656902007-08-23T11:05:00.000-04:002007-08-23T11:05:00.000-04:00Bee, I think Stefan mentions the reasons and most ...Bee, I think Stefan mentions the reasons and most obvious arguments against deletion.<BR/><BR/>Alas, it seems if you want no information loss, it also means no wrong and erroneous information is lost either. hmmm of course these can often 'wild goose chases' - but lets hope the universe is not filled with any 'red herrings' - or the world of particle physics with too many virtual particles, neverQUASAR9https://www.blogger.com/profile/00593390598251093182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62983144219092740992007-08-23T09:35:00.000-04:002007-08-23T09:35:00.000-04:00Cute. http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pub...Cute. <BR/><BR/>http://relativity.livingreviews.org/<BR/>open?pubNo=lrr-2006-3&page=articlesu9.htmleric gissehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598878490537720448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50862148546433314932007-08-23T09:33:00.000-04:002007-08-23T09:33:00.000-04:00lumo: You *are* aware you sound like a crank right...lumo: <BR/><BR/>You *are* aware you sound like a crank right now, don't you?<BR/><BR/>kris:<BR/><BR/>I can't remember the last time I opened a link on arxiv, read the title, and simply exclaimed "no!". The abstract made me laugh openly. <BR/><BR/>The paper is Not Even Wrong. The LAGEOS spacecraft were specifically designed passive craft for measuring the Earth's gravitational field. They and the eric gissehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10598878490537720448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52824004847220920242007-08-23T08:54:00.000-04:002007-08-23T08:54:00.000-04:00Bee wrote:However, I happen to know of several cas...Bee wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>However, I happen to know of several cases where I have had discussions with authors, and where the authors after an exchange admitted that assumption soandso is unjustified and the result doesn't make sense. All of these papers remained on the arxiv in exactly that version.</I><BR/><BR/>I am shocked by this behaviour if it's really as described, and I think that the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-25148269112946466842007-08-23T08:31:00.000-04:002007-08-23T08:31:00.000-04:00Good morning all,It's kind of interesting that nob...Good morning all,<BR/><BR/>It's kind of interesting that nobody of you seems to acknowledge possible benefits of allowing withdrawal. Only Lubos seems to be aware that the ethical and moral behaviour among scientists isn't always all that great. <BR/><BR/>Since Prof. Anonymous asked, what is bothering me is that these not-even-wrong and never-corrected papers remain not only the arxiv, but get Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2029097007055937002007-08-23T04:46:00.000-04:002007-08-23T04:46:00.000-04:00I agree with Kea that keeping all versions of an A...I agree with Kea that keeping all versions of an ArXiv paper is a REALLY good thing. I learned first-hand what sorts of trouble could happen without that feature.<BR/><BR/>A <A HREF="http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0701042v5" REL="nofollow">paper</A> was posted earlier this year claiming a measurement of the frame-dragging effect predicted by general relativity, to 0.5% accuracy, using orbital Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67917436637277796182007-08-23T03:34:00.000-04:002007-08-23T03:34:00.000-04:00I think it's correct that one can access the previ...I think it's correct that one can access the previous versions because otherwise history would be constantly overwritten which would cause a lot of confusion and bad mood.<BR/><BR/>I think it's obvious that if a serious mistake is realized by the authors and they have this technical opportunity to fix or remove the paper, they should do it.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, this elementary honesty combinedLuboš Motlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17487263983247488359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79541107113680475012007-08-22T22:56:00.000-04:002007-08-22T22:56:00.000-04:00neil,I'm an unaffiliated author and got something ...neil,<BR/><BR/>I'm an unaffiliated author and got something put up on arXiv. You have to get a sponsor, which is not difficult if you know someone who is working on something similar.<BR/><BR/>After getting a sponsor, you upload your paper, and you are given a temporary number. If the moderators allow your paper, then it goes on to arXiv.<BR/><BR/>I had trouble with the moderators, but a few CarlBrannenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17180079098492232258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63244563703599639122007-08-22T22:24:00.000-04:002007-08-22T22:24:00.000-04:00Journals had asked for removal of the preprints af...Journals had asked for removal of the preprints after publication of the article, if it had been a initial option in the arxiv. Book editors could suggest authors that removal of previous lecture courses will improve the distribution of the book. Only the mediocre papers would remain.Alejandro Riverohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181521111080562335noreply@blogger.com