tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post7491866552846687586..comments2017-06-26T04:46:59.072-04:00Comments on Backreaction: More information emerges about new proposal to solve black hole information loss problemSabine Hossenfelderhttps://plus.google.com/111136225362929878171noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-33701853140451932042016-01-10T17:12:34.317-05:002016-01-10T17:12:34.317-05:00Also I am not thinking equations of state, but a q...Also I am not thinking equations of state, but a quantum (zero temp) phase transiton that would be part of a possible quantum solution Perry Ricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12291816182758536746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13060374221684094312016-01-10T06:38:40.978-05:002016-01-10T06:38:40.978-05:00GratefulRob,
It does, at least in principle. Ever...GratefulRob,<br /><br />It does, at least in principle. Everything that's in the metric also goes into the transformation from in to outgoing states, though this contribution is typically neglected (one makes an approximation in the horizon vicinity). It also doesn't really help though because this 'wake' doesn't carry all the information about the quantum state.Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86204590147934123112016-01-10T06:34:05.508-05:002016-01-10T06:34:05.508-05:00Perry Rice,
It might possibly be that matter unde...Perry Rice,<br /><br />It might possibly be that matter undergoes a phase transition during collapse, that depends on the matter and on its equation of state. But this has very little to do with the formation of the black hole. The horizon forms when the total matter is compressed on a radius below the Schwarzschild radius. The density of matter at that point can be arbitrarily low, and the Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56096105063991348512016-01-10T03:34:31.159-05:002016-01-10T03:34:31.159-05:00Hi Sabine, thanks.
I was thinking of a paper on ...Hi Sabine, thanks. <br /><br />I was thinking of a paper on gravitation I quoted some time ago on this blog, based on Wheeler-Feynman's absorber (- which may be "just a coincidence"); augmented with Cramer's QM interpretation. In this way, it is an error to consider fluctuations "causing" decoherence.<br /><br />I do not mean gravity causes the collapse of the wave akidbellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12292741599925116131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-71108788694225873552016-01-09T22:04:05.479-05:002016-01-09T22:04:05.479-05:00About that Vampire Knight Kain Akatsuki wig.... Is...About that Vampire Knight Kain Akatsuki wig.... Is black hole information heir to the quantum vampire effect?<br /><br />http://quantumtantra.blogspot.com/2014/08/quantum-vampire-effect.html<br />and doi:10.1364/OPTICA.2.000112Uncle Alhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05056804084187606211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64905103476370203912016-01-09T18:37:43.169-05:002016-01-09T18:37:43.169-05:00wouldn't like everything leave a 'wake'...wouldn't like everything leave a 'wake' on the way 'in'? And then the 'wake' would 'decode' the info into all the properties of each 'de-Siamesed' virtual pair. GratefulRobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05312034609467668907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31001502164081489792016-01-09T15:43:05.309-05:002016-01-09T15:43:05.309-05:00Hit send too fast. At this critical density the st...Hit send too fast. At this critical density the strong grav coupling brigs the quantized energy of the first excited state down to what was the old vacuum, and the dengeneracy happens. And like in superradiance, when this happens, you get a macrscopic field amplitude for the interior.<br /><br />This happens in the Jaynes Cummings model for N atoms<br /><br />H= omega( sigmaz +adagger*a) +g(Perry Ricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12291816182758536746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-5525875254747087892016-01-09T15:35:57.927-05:002016-01-09T15:35:57.927-05:00I guess I was thinking of infalling matter, the po...I guess I was thinking of infalling matter, the potential goes as the mass density it sees, and at some point the density increases to a critical value (planck density?) there is a phase transition at some radius r. Inside the horizon it is in the condensed phase (to use the term very loosely). <br /><br />Perry Ricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12291816182758536746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-73061140595137165562016-01-09T13:13:56.646-05:002016-01-09T13:13:56.646-05:00akidbelle,
Not sure what you mean. You mean that ...akidbelle,<br /><br />Not sure what you mean. You mean that quantum mechanical indeterminism is a by-product of (presumably classical) gravitational fluctuations? That would be a kind of hidden-variables theory. It better be nonlocal then. That's kind of a problem because gravity is local. I don't know of any compelling model. Also, if such gravitational fluctuations had any effect they Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-9506642446704371802016-01-09T09:49:51.946-05:002016-01-09T09:49:51.946-05:00Thanks Sabine, I think I would vote "there is...Thanks Sabine, I think I would vote "there is no spoon"... mostly for the fun of it. <br /><br />One more question: Would you know of any theory where QM is a by-product of gravitation?<br /><br />Thanks<br />J.<br />akidbellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12292741599925116131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-40827672755142111492016-01-09T09:01:06.636-05:002016-01-09T09:01:06.636-05:00akidbelle,
There isn't any information loss p...akidbelle,<br /><br />There isn't any information loss problem as long as the black hole doesn't evaporate. It's only when it's gone that you are forced to wonder, well, where did the information go. I recommend you read <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.de/2008/06/black-hole-information-loss-paradox.html" rel="nofollow">this earlier blogpost</a> to get you up to speed :o)Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79298334975208721152016-01-09T07:01:22.087-05:002016-01-09T07:01:22.087-05:00Dear Sabine,
I thought that in GRT the Compton fr...Dear Sabine,<br /><br />I thought that in GRT the Compton frequency of anything in free fall is constant (once included gravitational time dilation). For an observer external to a black hole, anything falling in it takes an infinite time to reach the horizon. Then why would an external observer "see" any information loss?<br /><br />Please excuse me if I fail to understand the basics. <akidbellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12292741599925116131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79363998945380833222016-01-09T01:12:09.293-05:002016-01-09T01:12:09.293-05:00Perry,
I don't know how you want to have a ph...Perry,<br /><br />I don't know how you want to have a phase transition without different ground state energies. Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-53193645262175283572016-01-08T20:55:42.811-05:002016-01-08T20:55:42.811-05:00Different vacuums/ground states brings two mind tw...Different vacuums/ground states brings two mind two things. Unruh and Phase Transitions.<br /><br />In optics we have our version of superradiance, where if a group of N (two-level) atoms with transition wavelength less than the diameter of the ball of atoms, they radiate at a rate enhanced by \sqrt{N}. This happens when the coupling rate (or vaccum Rabi splitting) is the size of the frequency, Perry Ricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12291816182758536746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63120302341680861462016-01-08T20:02:58.472-05:002016-01-08T20:02:58.472-05:00Different vacuums/ground states sounds a lot like ...Different vacuums/ground states sounds a lot like a phase transition. Is there perhaps one phase of matter inside and one out, the one inside having reached a critical density, and outside not? It also brings to mind different vacuums being seen by accelerated and inertial observers.<br /><br />In optics this can happen with superradiance, where if a group of two level atoms has a coupling that Perry Ricehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12291816182758536746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37772693703478204012016-01-08T12:39:15.884-05:002016-01-08T12:39:15.884-05:00raskalnikoff,
I don't understand what you mea...raskalnikoff,<br /><br />I don't understand what you mean. It would be helpful if you could be more specific. Which statement are you referring to?<br />Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89895850726161289632016-01-08T12:08:14.991-05:002016-01-08T12:08:14.991-05:00Dear Sabine
You are confusing charges with micros...Dear Sabine<br /><br />You are confusing charges with microstates. <br /><br />Warm Regards<br />Caligularaskalnikoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02239375701225551314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56974795708094453312016-01-08T00:42:22.568-05:002016-01-08T00:42:22.568-05:00Arun,
You mean is there an explanation somewhere ...Arun,<br /><br />You mean is there an explanation somewhere in the paper? No. I think the reason for the difference is the way of counting. The AdS microstates count, roughly, different ways you can assemble a black hole. What they count in the paper instead is the number of degrees of freedom you can excite on the black hole horizon (don't ask me how you excite something from zero energy to Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76390393926122125442016-01-08T00:28:48.009-05:002016-01-08T00:28:48.009-05:00Google,
It doesn't affect the evaporation, si...Google,<br /><br />It doesn't affect the evaporation, since this depends on the temperature. What this affects is the relation between the temperature and the entropy. I don't know what consequences it has. However, as I indicated in my blogpost, I am not really convinced that's the right way to think of it. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6846109035942049102016-01-08T00:25:25.818-05:002016-01-08T00:25:25.818-05:00Neil,
No, the final decay is Planck scale physics...Neil,<br /><br />No, the final decay is Planck scale physics. Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-44894849990075519442016-01-08T00:24:30.391-05:002016-01-08T00:24:30.391-05:00Leo,
That's a good point! I wasn't so muc...Leo,<br /><br />That's a good point! I wasn't so much thinking of throwing shells into an already existing black hole, but using the shells to make a black hole to begin with. I think what you suggest might still work in this case. Though it seems to indicate that the information in the outgoing radiation is more local (in terms of time) than I'd have expected. I'll have to think Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-35652365026344674092016-01-08T00:15:45.887-05:002016-01-08T00:15:45.887-05:00Ivan,
It is beyond me why you prefer accepting th...Ivan,<br /><br />It is beyond me why you prefer accepting the postulation of a fundamental 'pixel' over an explanation what the degrees of freedom are. What did they explain? Read post. Where is the formula? See paper. You have given me the impression that you complain about lack of progress on a question you don't know very much about to begin with.Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-7051941348111106342016-01-07T18:16:20.207-05:002016-01-07T18:16:20.207-05:00"This is relevant because string theorists be...<i>"This is relevant because string theorists believe that the black hole information loss problem doesn’t exist in asymptotic AdS space."</i><br /><br />Dear Bee,<br /><br />Is there an explanation somewhere about why a microscopic "explanation" of black hole entropy depends on the asymptotic space? If you told me hydrogen atoms work differently depending on the large scale Arunhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84965088368554696362016-01-07T14:44:24.209-05:002016-01-07T14:44:24.209-05:00Re "if this argument is correct, the Bekenste...Re "if this argument is correct, the Bekenstein-Hawking entropy does not count the microstates of the black hole, it instead sets an upper limit to the possible number of microstates".<br /><br />What is the consequence of that for black-hole evaporation? First guess is that a "low entropy" black hole has a higher temperature and evaporates quicker?Google Made Me Make This Account I Dont Want Ithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14283330854688056596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-82780527123598753542016-01-07T14:30:15.454-05:002016-01-07T14:30:15.454-05:00Sabine—your thought experiment regarding one conce...Sabine—your thought experiment regarding one concentric shell vs. two shell is a great one. This is because it should focus purely on supertranslations, with no contribution from any Poincare subgroup (though I don't know how much sense it makes to say that, because the Poincare subgroup is not a *normal* subgroup within BMS, i.e. there is no preferred 'splitting' of the BMS group Leohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09227175321097879772noreply@blogger.com