tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post7440724302646404554..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Do women in physics get fewer citations than men?Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79586132861707391552018-12-12T16:03:27.556-05:002018-12-12T16:03:27.556-05:00WRL wrote: I recently read an article about the w...WRL wrote: I recently read an article about the woman who discovered that the universe is made of hydrogen- and was not credited by a man -who took credit for it. This type of unethical behavior harms the science's reputation.<br /><br />Actually, Henry Russell did give credit to Cecilia Payne in his paper about the composition of stars. What he didn't do was admit that he thought Payne&Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-7244353583549844522018-12-11T20:46:22.527-05:002018-12-11T20:46:22.527-05:00Sabine, I find women to be most welcome in physics...Sabine, I find women to be most welcome in physics, as they tend to socialize solutions well. Thus Lisa Randall acquired quite a following... <br />I met her at String Theory the Millenium (U of Mich), and she was kind enough to return to talk to me while I waited. I always refer to the Randall scalar, lambda, even when equating it to Beth, the Particulate Mass Functional (which requires six WRLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04323354407920835050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37035217992346344412018-12-10T06:24:30.863-05:002018-12-10T06:24:30.863-05:00By the way, the parameter here called "Gender...By the way, the parameter here called "Gender Asymmetry" is one of the variants of "Cohen's Kappa", a characterization of square contingency tables. In network theory, it is better known as assortativity. In statistics it has been always a very disputed parameter because of its dependence on "marginals", ie on the row and column sums. On the other hand, its Alejandro Riverohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181521111080562335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-26011127678766625462018-12-07T13:38:51.224-05:002018-12-07T13:38:51.224-05:00David wrote: My concern is as follows: what is the...David wrote: My concern is as follows: what is the end-game of bias studies? <br /><br />In my lifetime, many things have been done to correct problems with gender and ethnic discrimination and bias. Please clarify what you're concerned about. <br /><br />David wrote: At some point, the social discussion needs to change to merit<br /><br />Merit has always been an important part of the Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-20496715751860259412018-12-07T10:14:34.695-05:002018-12-07T10:14:34.695-05:00@ Steven Mason
"Maybe there is evidence of g...@ Steven Mason<br /><br />"Maybe there is evidence of gender bias, maybe not. Since there is a long history of gender bias, don't you think it's reasonable to look at this even if there are other important things to work on?"<br /><br />Steven, thank you for your feedback. I have no doubt that there was, is, and always will be bias. Bias takes many forms- humans are Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202408094693948018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56860595840649920472018-12-07T09:44:37.867-05:002018-12-07T09:44:37.867-05:00Jean,
As I told you, we don't look at individ...Jean,<br /><br />As I told you, we don't look at individual people. You can check at on website how well the author-id works. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62206644336188068772018-12-07T09:03:49.885-05:002018-12-07T09:03:49.885-05:00Interesting: today’s blog post is about a paper by...Interesting: today’s blog post is about a paper by J. S. Farnes ... male or female? An arXiv author search turns up Jamie Farnes, Jamie S. Farnes, and J. Farnes, in addition to J. S. Farnes. In your bibliography matching, Bee, how did you deal with these cases? One author? Several different authors? Decide on name alone, or try to match institutions too?JeanTatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08737430572613792118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-88943843208472531942018-12-05T13:05:56.462-05:002018-12-05T13:05:56.462-05:00David wrote: it may be more important to focus one...David wrote: it may be more important to focus one's efforts on ensuring importance of contribution rather than the identity of the contributor.<br /><br />David, maybe there should be a study on what we should study. :-)<br /><br />Sabine is attempting to find out if women in physics get fewer citations than men, and if so, she wants to understand "where the differences come from."Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62174099335092776142018-12-05T10:19:13.450-05:002018-12-05T10:19:13.450-05:00"Identity should have nothing to do with impo..."Identity should have nothing to do with importance of contribution."<br /><br />Importance is measured in the number of citations. Citations are given more often to those who are known by the author than to those who are not known to the author. In more colloquial terms: Friends are easier cited than strangers. And citations breed citations, i.e., the Matthew principle.<br /><br />As aRob van Son (Not a physicist, just an amateur)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12611755507524401026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-70549741296026737382018-12-05T09:44:48.301-05:002018-12-05T09:44:48.301-05:00Identity should have nothing to do with importance...Identity should have nothing to do with importance of contribution.<br /><br />For this reason, it may be more important to focus one's efforts on ensuring importance of contribution rather than the identity of the contributor.<br /><br />Though there may be (probably are) injustice(s) committed, rationalizing the exact opposite is not a sustainable solution.<br /><br />True sincerity is the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202408094693948018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49023665303783715772018-12-05T09:04:41.410-05:002018-12-05T09:04:41.410-05:00Thanks Sabine.
I know you guys are sorta just sta...Thanks Sabine.<br /><br />I know you guys are sorta just starting out here, but I feel you do need to address "no first name" cases, perhaps separately from "ambiguous first name" ones. Also, while I agree you are likely to find nothing much of interest when you analyze the "not male or female, as far as we can tell" cases, you do need to do so at some point. How JeanTatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08737430572613792118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-82989169566343548832018-12-05T00:44:06.605-05:002018-12-05T00:44:06.605-05:00Jean,
The gender of authors who never use their f...Jean,<br /><br />The gender of authors who never use their first name can't be identified. We haven't looked at the non-identified set but will probably do that for the paper. I don't think there's much to learn from that. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84823522231857234432018-12-04T17:04:33.013-05:002018-12-04T17:04:33.013-05:00Phillip wrote: everything to do with violating wel...Phillip wrote: everything to do with violating well documented Wikipedia standards<br /><br />Interesting. I've edited some Wikipedia articles in order to correct errors, but I'm clueless about the "standards." In fact, I assumed that the standards were quite low, because the errors I corrected were pretty bad. That was more than ten years ago, and maybe they've tightened Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-53885306305123869002018-12-04T14:27:13.558-05:002018-12-04T14:27:13.558-05:00@Sabine: Thanks for the clarification.
Two more o...@Sabine: Thanks for the clarification.<br /><br />Two more observations on your study: <br /><br />1) How did you treat authors whose "names" are just an initial (or two) plus the "family name"? From memory, there are quite a few papers from authors in the former Soviet Union (and present day Russia, etc) like this. Of course, some people do have a given name that is just one JeanTatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08737430572613792118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76065450932706243962018-12-04T12:55:20.989-05:002018-12-04T12:55:20.989-05:00@Sabine
Hooray! The anti-social introvert admits ...@Sabine<br /><br />Hooray! The anti-social introvert admits that she'd be dead if she didn't have an "accidental" sense of humor. <br /><br />You can be a consistently grumpy person and a consistently funny person. They are not mutually exclusive. Some of the things you say literally crack me up, and when I show them to my friends, they laugh too. <br /><br />In your modified Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-57433482120873108172018-12-04T04:24:22.705-05:002018-12-04T04:24:22.705-05:00"There's no doubt that it's tricky bu...<i>"There's no doubt that it's tricky business to find meaningful answers, and reasonable people will no doubt disagree on various approaches, methodologies and interpretations."</i><br /><br />Right.<br /><br /><i>"Let's face it: At the very least, some of us have a nagging and not unreasonable suspicion that women and minorities, as groups, don't get as fair a Phillip Helbighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067585245603436809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-40437538624959475232018-12-04T01:12:44.851-05:002018-12-04T01:12:44.851-05:00Steve,
"Would you please just admit that you...Steve,<br /><br /><i>"Would you please just admit that you were joking when you said you don't appreciate American humor? Then I can stop my compulsive efforts to prove that you have a sense of humor."</i><br /><br />If I didn't have a sense of humor I'd long be dead. I don't get American comedy and sit-coms is what I'm saying. I don't laugh about 95% of what TheSabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42804085564368620632018-12-03T16:54:32.141-05:002018-12-03T16:54:32.141-05:00Phillip wrote: Let's face it. Of all the mista...Phillip wrote: Let's face it. Of all the mistakes one can make when doing bibliometry . . .<br /><br />There's no doubt that it's tricky business to find meaningful answers, and reasonable people will no doubt disagree on various approaches, methodologies and interpretations.<br /><br />Let's face it: At the very least, some of us have a nagging and not unreasonable suspicion thatSteven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-33992366465271029162018-12-03T16:18:20.212-05:002018-12-03T16:18:20.212-05:00Sabine wrote: I am afraid there really is no "...Sabine wrote: I am afraid there really is no "right" answer. Not like this is particle physics or something ;)<br /><br />Would you please just admit that you were joking when you said you don't appreciate American humor? Then I can stop my compulsive efforts to prove that you have a sense of humor. <br /><br />Stephen Hawking had a sense of humor. It was said that he liked to run Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50026155039551429412018-12-03T15:43:56.144-05:002018-12-03T15:43:56.144-05:00naïve theorist wrote: i'd like to recommend tw...naïve theorist wrote: i'd like to recommend two old and long forgotten novels: C.P. Snow's first novel "The Search" and Eckert's "The Hab Theory" as excellent novels about the actual practice of doing and presenting scientific research.<br /><br />Thanks, I'll take a look at those books. I just now glanced at their plots. "The Search" seems to be an Steven Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05140374687362624448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49677331826511738872018-12-03T10:49:09.144-05:002018-12-03T10:49:09.144-05:00Dear Sabine,
I have the impression that the abso...Dear Sabine,<br /> I have the impression that the absolute number of citations may not be very representative of the overall value of a scientist, and that perhaps some corrections would need to be applied. I have just two examples<br />-a citation could be positive ("referring to the work of..."), neutral ("others have formulated different hypothesis"), or even negative (&Giuliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00456476105806480302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42285248141835077182018-12-03T06:48:20.308-05:002018-12-03T06:48:20.308-05:00"The reason I do well on this particular inde...<i>"The reason I do well on this particular index is simply that I am an anti-social introvert who doesn’t like to work with other people. And, evidently, I am too old to be apologetic about this. Since most of my papers are single-authored, I get to collect my citations pretty much undiluted, in contrast to people who prefer to work in groups."</i><br /><br />Let's face it. Of allPhillip Helbighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067585245603436809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89929884511031206212018-12-03T00:49:13.355-05:002018-12-03T00:49:13.355-05:00Jean,
The distribution by nation will certainly n...Jean,<br /><br />The distribution by nation will certainly not be the same, but I think it gives us a good impression of how well we do. We implicitly have a list of ambiguous names, but presently no plans to make it public/don't see the point. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16723904764937753202018-12-02T16:46:23.048-05:002018-12-02T16:46:23.048-05:00Thanks Bee.
Ah, I messed up!
Here's what I m...Thanks Bee.<br /><br />Ah, I messed up!<br /><br />Here's what I meant to post, just a minute or so after my last post here:<br /><br />OK, please delete my as yet unpublished comment ... from the slides you did try to identify gender by name. Do you have a list of "ambiguous" names, one that you could make public?<br /><br />Also, using the Boston Marathon to check for bias is JeanTatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08737430572613792118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64410759702914838782018-12-02T12:10:39.208-05:002018-12-02T12:10:39.208-05:00Jean,
Please look at the slides.Jean,<br /><br />Please look at the slides.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.com