tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post6303870670270449899..comments2020-04-02T18:18:31.173-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Solutions to the black hole information paradoxSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger97125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58817886225906867652019-10-19T18:02:49.662-04:002019-10-19T18:02:49.662-04:00The condensed solution: SR's eqs. 4 and 5 at T...The condensed solution: SR's eqs. 4 and 5 at The Relativistic Rocket site (hosted by Baez) are time-reversible. They alternatively calculate the time in either the rocket's frame or the frame of the freely falling observer (hereafter a stone) for the rocket to decelerate to rest relative to and beside the stone. There is no limit to d, the initial distance to the rocket in the stone'sTom Fuchshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17646011875919892992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6600050461092114662019-10-16T15:06:10.304-04:002019-10-16T15:06:10.304-04:00Hi, PhysicistDave!
Hawking was correct to say t...Hi, PhysicistDave!<br /> Hawking was correct to say that replacing event horizons with apparent horizons allows information to migrate outwards through a horizon, solving the black hole information paradox. It turns the horizon into an //acoustic// horizon, described by an acoustic metric, and acoustic metrics generate the classical counterpart of Hawking radiation.<br /><br />What Hawking ErkDemon (Eric Baird)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00430413494529535159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-33786472959176984792019-10-16T14:53:52.261-04:002019-10-16T14:53:52.261-04:00Hi MLA!
It's a legitimate argument, explored...Hi MLA!<br /> It's a legitimate argument, explored by Thorne, Price and Macdonald in their "Membrane Paradigm" book (1986) and described in an article in Scientific American in April 1988.<br /><br />The Membrane Paradigm deliberately describes black hole physics "naively" as it appears to play out as seen by a distant observer. If we drop a large rock into a black hole, ErkDemon (Eric Baird)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00430413494529535159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50114034828361597392019-10-11T05:30:57.155-04:002019-10-11T05:30:57.155-04:00I was reading Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wh...I was reading Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler. And on page 933 it referes to a paper by Hawkings which is implied to say that black holes can never bifurcate. <br /><br />In other words GR is not time reversible since coalescing of black holes are possible. <br /><br />It seems like the hawking radiation is just a red hearing. Mattihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16378902135503029904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60498875434264331082019-10-11T02:49:50.486-04:002019-10-11T02:49:50.486-04:00Hi Sabine, I'm enjoying your book so much, and...Hi Sabine, I'm enjoying your book so much, and it leads me to ideas like as following.<br /><br />Maybe the solution to the information paradox is: 10^60 billion years is the average time before reality clashes into a "INFORMATION DESTROYED ERROR". One day it will happen and the universe will fall apart, but until then nobody will notice that old, remote, frozen information is beingWhite Boarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03851015664034917877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60379089869156506372019-09-08T08:45:05.831-04:002019-09-08T08:45:05.831-04:00According to wikipedia the existence of "quar...According to wikipedia the existence of "quark stars" is an open problem in physics, so the idea of of "another level of degeneracy" might perhaps still be viable?Pascalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14201150679841329835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42968884854480860082019-09-07T03:25:17.492-04:002019-09-07T03:25:17.492-04:00Peter: Sadly, I cannot locate references now, beyo...Peter: Sadly, I cannot locate references now, beyond what's described in https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.88.104023 and https://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.89.104002.<br /><br />To quote the latter: "in the circular case, even at large, negative energies, the Boulware rate does not align with the Hartle-Hawking and Unruh rates"<br /><br />Sergeihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15415152744605672336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-27710811372041341002019-09-06T15:33:15.957-04:002019-09-06T15:33:15.957-04:00Dave, chatting with you in this thread has been lo...Dave, chatting with you in this thread has been lots of fun and thought provoking, so I cheerfully give you the last word! See you in future threads... :)Terry Bollingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915136249111338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75429559048943499412019-09-06T07:34:31.480-04:002019-09-06T07:34:31.480-04:00I think you got the point. Information is just los...I think you got the point. Information is just lost at the transition from quantum physics to the classically observed physical states within the measurement process.<br />Personally, I have also a problem with the very definition of information within quantum theory. Clearly, the definition is straigth forward, since the so called "information" covers, what can be measured at least in A former LEP expermentalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08884551782946824614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64743314880939145112019-09-06T03:13:34.298-04:002019-09-06T03:13:34.298-04:00Terry wrote to me:
>@PhysicistDave, I like your...Terry wrote to me:<br />>@PhysicistDave, I like your idea that new papers should in general make only small deltas to existing work, but let's look at that strategy more closely.<br /><br />No, you misunderstand my (and Feynman's) view. Our point is that the delta should be <i>zero</i>: i.e., you should try hard, really hard, to explain new phenomena with <i>existing</i> theories, as PhysicistDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11111405959451703182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64322578125155118852019-09-04T22:59:06.456-04:002019-09-04T22:59:06.456-04:00Terry wrote to me:
>I'm surprised and a bit...Terry wrote to me:<br />>I'm surprised and a bit disappointed in myself that I came over in any way as anti-math.<br /><br />Oh, I'm not accusing you of being "anti-math." I'm merely making the generic point that ideas that seem interesting are a dime a dozen... until you try to make them precise by phrasing them in mathematical terms.<br /><br />It's amazing how PhysicistDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11111405959451703182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60641385321234205972019-09-04T19:26:49.628-04:002019-09-04T19:26:49.628-04:00I don't quite agree with your comments in poin...I don't quite agree with your comments in point 4. It can be done and in fact has been done.<br />To obtain an observer independent formulation of quantum mechanics, Fröhlich, in his Events, Trees, Histories (ETH) approach to quantum mechanics, puts the loss of access to information at the heart of quantum mechanics.<br />That approach essential claims to resolve black hole information loss Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15857071098109374257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-40466674838882239332019-09-04T17:47:04.380-04:002019-09-04T17:47:04.380-04:00[CONTINUED from subthread:
http://backreaction.blo...[CONTINUED from subthread:<br />http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/08/solutions-to-black-hole-information.html?showComment=1567520929450#c2566740477589404098]<br /><br />@PhysicistDave, I like your idea that new papers should in general make only small deltas to existing work, but let's look at that strategy more closely.<br /><br />Evolutionary programming also keeps mutations small to Terry Bollingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915136249111338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-53816492174851071952019-09-04T09:37:04.303-04:002019-09-04T09:37:04.303-04:00Hi, Sabine. I would very much appreciate your opin...Hi, Sabine. I would very much appreciate your opinions one these two papers:<br /><br />https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.05923<br /><br />https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.01902<br /><br />The former is the only answer to Maudlin's paper that I'm aware of.<br /><br />The latter argues against the statistical interpretation of black hole entropy.M. J. Glaeserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05153269635849920592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77423073994840919872019-09-04T08:42:17.277-04:002019-09-04T08:42:17.277-04:00The discussions here are admittedly quite a bit mo...The discussions here are admittedly quite a bit more sophisticated than their medieval versions, but the solution seems to be that 42 angels can dance on the head of a pin.aydemirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14914741488721455912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-25667404775894040982019-09-03T10:28:49.450-04:002019-09-03T10:28:49.450-04:00@PhysicistDave,
Thanks! That was a well-written a...@PhysicistDave,<br /><br />Thanks! That was a well-written and constructive response, though I'm surprised and a bit disappointed in myself that I came over in any way as anti-math. I'm busy today but should have some comments by tomorrow. Terry Bollingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915136249111338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76469964630588349522019-09-03T03:22:14.099-04:002019-09-03T03:22:14.099-04:00"I am proposing that when the stress-energy t..."I am proposing that when the stress-energy tensor crosses a certain threshold, the result is not collapse, but a reorganization of matter at the quantum level due to momentum space becoming energetically favorable over xyz flat space."<br /><br />A horizon can form at any matter density. Even our universe would be a black hole at its current density with a radius of about 10B ly, if itRob van Son (Not a physicist, just an amateur)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12611755507524401026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60368805092363299042019-09-03T01:08:26.316-04:002019-09-03T01:08:26.316-04:00Terry wrote:
>I am proposing that when the stre...Terry wrote:<br />>I am proposing that when the stress-energy tensor crosses a certain threshold, the result is not collapse, but a reorganization of matter at the quantum level due to momentum space becoming energetically favorable over xyz flat space.<br /><br />Terry, the problem is that this is too vague an idea to be physics until you put it into math. And, you also have the problem thatPhysicistDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11111405959451703182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84540478528981396232019-09-02T17:03:58.444-04:002019-09-02T17:03:58.444-04:00@PhysicistDave,
Thanks! The Valentina Baccetti et...@PhysicistDave,<br /><br />Thanks! The Valentina Baccetti et al papers are excellent.<br /><br />In 2017 "Do event horizons exist?", Baccetti, Mann, and Terno wrote (my bold):<br /><br />"In other words, r_g is a hypothetical surface that the shell gets very close to but never crosses. <b>Neither trapped surface, nor horizon nor singularity ever form.</b> The distance ϵ_* ∝ C^(−1) Terry Bollingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915136249111338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-47227718852072191162019-09-02T16:06:09.380-04:002019-09-02T16:06:09.380-04:00Just a correction to avoid confusion.
"Anywa...Just a correction to avoid confusion.<br /><br />"Anyway, only a third observer seeing you and the charge redshifted can see any gradient"<br /><br />I should have written "redshifting" not "redshifted". It is the change in the redshift which must be considered. MC Squaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14487243809180488798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75377406827907921042019-09-02T12:32:34.841-04:002019-09-02T12:32:34.841-04:00Peter, I humbly bow to your greater expertise on t...Peter, I humbly bow to your greater expertise on this point! I admit that since someone as familiar with the GR math as 't Hooft now seems to accept event horizons as being initially point-like (see the reference to his paper in my last comment), I've been willing to accept that the expanding event horizon interpretation of black hole growth as fully consistent with earlier mathematical Terry Bollingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915136249111338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-47184248608815912172019-09-02T10:03:39.286-04:002019-09-02T10:03:39.286-04:00The definition of "absolute horizon" tha...The definition of "absolute horizon" that doesn't come into existence until sufficient gravitational effects have propagated at light speed to the location where it forms is not the standard definition of "absolute horizon". I expect 't Hooft knows the difference.Peter Shorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13823970640202949073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-19738484213591330252019-09-02T08:54:22.020-04:002019-09-02T08:54:22.020-04:00This has been investigated. Ideas of a force or so...This has been investigated. Ideas of a force or some quantum process such as the Pauli exclusion principle countering implosion has been considered. The upshot of these investigations is that process capable of resisting all possible gravitational implosions propagates signals faster than light. Lawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75761683579940034782019-09-02T05:49:51.616-04:002019-09-02T05:49:51.616-04:00"There must be another level of degeneracy pr..."There must be another level of degeneracy pressure which prevents the singularity."<br /><br />The pressure makes a contribution to the stress-energy tensor and hence contributes to the gravitational force. At pressures a bit higher than exist at the core of neutron stars this contribution to gravity will prevent any degeneracy pressure from being able to resist the collapse, as the Count Iblishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17234653545597441999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-8125520749535598102019-09-02T05:49:07.165-04:002019-09-02T05:49:07.165-04:00Henry wrote:
>Just like there really is no sing...Henry wrote:<br />>Just like there really is no singularity of "infinite" density at the center of a black hole (it's just a mathematical figment from Einstein's classical equations), so too there may be no evaporation of a black hole from Hawking radiation. Consider for example a 10 solar mass black hole located in some typical area of the Milky Way. Over a billion years, PhysicistDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11111405959451703182noreply@blogger.com