tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post6014434196454700049..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Dangerous IdeasSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86478397218683249822007-08-12T15:57:00.000-04:002007-08-12T15:57:00.000-04:00Hi Bee, Then I misunderstood you. From your paragr...Hi Bee, Then I misunderstood you. From your paragraph here, we seem to agree.<BR/><BR/>I hadn't heard before your opinion about what to do about terrorists. I'm happily in agreement about that too. My thoughts (argued with someone on a blog a couple of years ago :-/ ) is:<BR/><BR/>*we* (the world) have no right to "change" the nature of the societies that are breeding terrorism. It is exactly amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14225244309374982712007-08-12T13:15:00.000-04:002007-08-12T13:15:00.000-04:00PS: imo that war was major enoughPS: <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War" REL="nofollow">imo that war was major enough</A>Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34577573497578681852007-08-12T13:11:00.000-04:002007-08-12T13:11:00.000-04:00Hi Neil:I am definitely all for 'insight developme...Hi Neil:<BR/><BR/>I am definitely all for 'insight development' and I understand where you are coming from. I was just saying that your 'logical ideal' has little chances to become reality any time soon. A considerable part of the political task at hand right now is how to best deal with our irrationality. <BR/><BR/>Dear Amara:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the photo, this is nice :-) Though I don't think Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-33434017691915567602007-08-12T11:54:00.000-04:002007-08-12T11:54:00.000-04:00Brief re-finessing: I'd say a serious proposal is ...Brief re-finessing: I'd say a serious proposal is something that has a chance of being agreed to, v. my slip of writing shortly above. However, it is important to appreciate that wielders of power, public and private, often consider and enact proposals that most of us don't like. More food for thought.Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-28516988389267973022007-08-12T11:32:00.000-04:002007-08-12T11:32:00.000-04:00Bee: "Plus, rationality is often boring." So is ca...Bee: "Plus, rationality is often boring." <BR/><BR/>So is <A HREF="http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/1020420542/" REL="nofollow">capitalism</A>. :-)amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-28399152644661251692007-08-12T11:16:00.000-04:002007-08-12T11:16:00.000-04:00Folks:Although I said later I posted it more as So...Folks:<BR/><BR/>Although I said later I posted it more as Socratic irritant than a "serious" proposal (remember that a proposal means what will actually be agreed to, not just what's ultimately "right"), I find it odd it didn't get more respect as a <I>logical</I> point about how intelligent beings would regard other beings. (I said that a rational being knows he or she doesn't objectively Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-75499033262485331792007-08-12T02:08:00.000-04:002007-08-12T02:08:00.000-04:00Bee: "altruism is part of the human nature, so is ...Bee: "altruism is part of the human nature, so is cooperation - but it for sure isn't the human nature per se."<BR/><BR/>Hmm. This sentence looks contradictory. What I'm saying is that are there _are_ biological (genetic), psychological, and sociological reasons for humans to be altruistic, in some circumstances. I don't know how dominant, e.g. dominant in time or dominant at the particular timesamaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-36127148736779809202007-08-11T22:20:00.000-04:002007-08-11T22:20:00.000-04:00Adding to what Amara wrote...Perhaps one can think...Adding to what Amara wrote...<BR/><BR/>Perhaps one can think of groups as humans that live in tribes (as we all used to do until a few thousand years ago) as "super organisms".<BR/><BR/>Recently I saw a documentary about a tribe in somewhere in Africa. When people get ill or injured, they go to the "medicine woman". She told before she became the medicine woman, her mother used to be the medicineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-81088586031364969922007-08-11T20:25:00.000-04:002007-08-11T20:25:00.000-04:00Dear Amara:Thanks for the references, I am aware o...Dear Amara:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the references, I am aware of that. As I've acknowledged above, altruism is part of the human nature, so is cooperation - but it for sure isn't the human nature per se. Now I don't know what you claim is not true of what I said. Do you deny that egoism and competition is part of the human behaviour. Do you deny that we don't treat everybody else like we'd treat Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41313990744281537642007-08-11T18:39:00.000-04:002007-08-11T18:39:00.000-04:00Quasar: I like this play with dolphins better ...!...Quasar: I like this <A HREF="http://www.interspecies.com/pages/dolphin%20realtime.html" REL="nofollow">play with dolphins</A> better ...! :-)<BR/><BR/>(it's an earworm, I can listen to it for hours)amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-44014166737486301082007-08-11T18:22:00.000-04:002007-08-11T18:22:00.000-04:00Bee, since nobody has mentioned them:nuclear weapo...Bee, since nobody has mentioned them:<BR/><A HTTP://NUCLEARWEAPONARCHIVE.ORG/ HREF="" REL="nofollow">nuclear weapons arsenal</A><BR/><A HREF="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/antimatter_sun_030929.html" REL="nofollow">the reality of antimatter</A><BR/><BR/>Hi Amara,<BR/>There is a sort of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis" REL="nofollow">Symbiosis</A> betweeen humans & pets, QUASAR9https://www.blogger.com/profile/00593390598251093182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-91481325570814766602007-08-11T16:29:00.000-04:002007-08-11T16:29:00.000-04:00Sabine: "I just meant to express that a society th...Sabine: "I just meant to express that a society that counts on humans caring for each other as much as for themselves would not work. Though altruism is part of the human nature, evolution left us with a built in programme to value our own life (and that of closest peers) above that of strangers."<BR/><BR/>Dear Bee: This isn't true. Evolution did give us a 'buit-in program' to value other amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-9681432164471961622007-08-11T11:16:00.000-04:002007-08-11T11:16:00.000-04:00Hi Bee,See, I told you, (back when), that Einstein...Hi Bee,<BR/><BR/>See, I told you, (back when), that Einstein should have killed Bohr and Heisenberg when he had the chance!... er, "opportunity" may have been a better word here than "chance"... ;)<BR/><BR/>I just have a little nit to pick that even a que-ball that's used in a pool game "influences the future", but I'm pretty sure that you meant to say that we have the illusion that we are free islandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774086177497447408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-62243087758485114802007-08-11T09:09:00.000-04:002007-08-11T09:09:00.000-04:00Anyway, what is innocuous for someone might be dan...Anyway, what is innocuous for someone might be dangerous for others -- and not realizing this is perhaps the most dangerous idea one might have.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-37636772766508865092007-08-11T09:02:00.000-04:002007-08-11T09:02:00.000-04:00Hi Bee,-- The most dangerous idea is *not* to have...Hi Bee,<BR/><BR/>-- The most dangerous idea is *not* to have dangerous ideas.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the ability of having dangerous ideas is a prerequisite to the rising of intelligence.<BR/><BR/>But I could be completely wrong and the thing could be just the other way around!<BR/><BR/>Perhaps our human species is completely stupid for having dangerous ideas from time to time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-10193123887089599302007-08-11T08:40:00.000-04:002007-08-11T08:40:00.000-04:00Hi Neil:I am afraid you still don't get my point. ...Hi Neil:<BR/><BR/>I am afraid you still don't get my point. I'd love to live in a world full with peaceful, open-minded, self-reflecting, meditating, intelligent, nice people, but what you say would 'technically' be 'the logical ideal' is just not how the world really is. You're welcome to dream of a better version of mankind, but if you're trying to build up a society on your idealized humans Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-51312708724943184392007-08-11T08:32:00.000-04:002007-08-11T08:32:00.000-04:00Hi Island,Interestingly, just yesterday I wrote a ...Hi Island,<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, just yesterday I wrote a lengthy blahblah about the alleged dangerousness of denying the existence of free will. I doubt it would matter much. We certainly have the illusion that we influence the future, and knowing or not knowing it's an illusion doesn't make a large difference. Before the days of quantum mechanics there was no free will either, and people Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-12136508491288831562007-08-11T05:13:00.000-04:002007-08-11T05:13:00.000-04:00eh... I'll just say... WHOOPS!... loleh... I'll just say... WHOOPS!... lolislandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774086177497447408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-73389396059938754542007-08-11T05:12:00.000-04:002007-08-11T05:12:00.000-04:00I didn't notice any ideas in the list that I would...<I>I didn't notice any ideas in the list that I would consider genuinely dangerous</I><BR/><BR/>CIP, some of them entail that there is no such thing as free-will or choice.<BR/><BR/>That seems like this would require a paradigm shit that would do serious damage to the world view of all but a few that have already accepted it, like me.islandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16774086177497447408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84235886075677126732007-08-11T02:57:00.000-04:002007-08-11T02:57:00.000-04:00Quasar:"Amara in today's Western world the woman m...Quasar:<BR/><BR/>"Amara in today's Western world the woman may appear to have the freedom to terminate a perfectly healthy baby (because it interferes with her career plans and/or happiness), and on the other hand choose to give birth to a genetically unhealthy baby"<BR/><BR/>How the society in which she lives accomodates such decisions depends on the level of social support, that is, how much amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-71281977997576784062007-08-11T00:10:00.000-04:002007-08-11T00:10:00.000-04:00Amara in today's Western world the woman may appea...Amara in today's Western world the woman may appear to have the freedom to terminate a perfectly healthy baby (because it interferes with her career plans and/or happiness), and on the other hand choose to give birth to a genetically unhealthy baby - which will be condemned to a life of misery, a litany of surgical interventions and after much suffering and a very peculiar experience of life, QUASAR9https://www.blogger.com/profile/00593390598251093182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-30564344056902369492007-08-10T20:15:00.000-04:002007-08-10T20:15:00.000-04:00Ahh, I guess you all (we need a true second person...Ahh, I guess you all (we need a true second person plural in this dopey language) don't appreciate Socratic gadflies seeking consternation and reflection? I didn't really claim it as my own ideal, just that it would technically be the logical ideal. Remember, it would still depend on actual differences of situation, which could include what people deserved etc. - but no distinction <I>just</I> Neil Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04564859009749481136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-1994153564220090962007-08-10T20:04:00.000-04:002007-08-10T20:04:00.000-04:00Most of my dangerous ideas are mainly dangerous on...Most of my dangerous ideas are mainly dangerous only to myself, but I won't talk about them.<BR/><BR/>The prototypical "dangerous idea" was Darwin's natural selection. An idea is only dangerous if it's capable of vast destruction, and Darwin's idea destroyed much of the world picture of the 19th century. Susskind's dangerous idea might be dangerous to physics, but I doubt that it will shake theCapitalistImperialistPighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17523405806602731435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-79100665706559656982007-08-10T19:05:00.000-04:002007-08-10T19:05:00.000-04:00Dear Amara:I apologize for overemphasizing my argu...Dear Amara:<BR/><BR/>I apologize for overemphasizing my argument beyond the sensible range. I didn't mean to insult anybody with saying we're all assholes. I just meant to express that a society that counts on humans caring for each other as much as for themselves would not work. Though altruism is part of the human nature, evolution left us with a built in programme to value our own life (and Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-68349557176771991182007-08-10T19:00:00.000-04:002007-08-10T19:00:00.000-04:00Dear Quasar: The question of 'who'. Isn't it the w...Dear Quasar: The question of 'who'. Isn't it the woman, the owner of the foetus, who decides?amaragrapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15769062084934190681noreply@blogger.com