tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post5836058267675239299..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Dear Dr B: Is science democratic?Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76125266390423681082017-07-07T04:47:27.866-04:002017-07-07T04:47:27.866-04:00Scientists do not see laws of democracy in the sci...Scientists do not see laws of democracy in the scientific theories. Democracy is an element of culture for them. The culture loses to a science. We see such result in the forecast of scientific-technical progress. Progress is not scientific-cultural. The rational science cannot serve as a conductor to the future. The rational science studies only a part of a world.<br /><br />I have found the sevashko2014@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14658939824936548070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14343441833557968322017-07-07T01:33:47.740-04:002017-07-07T01:33:47.740-04:00Dear Bee
I quote this passage of yours "We s...Dear Bee<br /><br />I quote this passage of yours "We simply need something like this to prevent that courts that were created for entirely purposes end up having to decide what is what isn't scientific fact".<br /><br />I think it could be a sensible idea to give judges (and law experts in general) a more specific scientific education: statistics, epistemology and and a general Francesco Rocchihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693000339626273383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6035381071924633262017-07-06T06:30:33.325-04:002017-07-06T06:30:33.325-04:00"George is right, you are illustrating exactl...<i>"George is right, you are illustrating exactly the problem I was emphasizing."</i><br /><br />I've never been more surprised by any comment on any blog, ever. What have you been smoking? :-)<br /><br />There can be no debate that George's characterizations are extremely exaggerated, i.e. all who cite scientific evidence for political decisions want to sentence those who Phillip Helbighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067585245603436809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42406641798519977502017-07-05T11:49:49.765-04:002017-07-05T11:49:49.765-04:00Francesco,
I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
...Francesco,<br /><br />I appreciate your thoughtful comment.<br /><br />Regarding Gilbert, I think this is a misunderstanding. I am not aware that he said anything about democracy. I just meant to point out that if he is correct, then the whole idea of democracy is based on a flawed premise - namely that humans are able to make a good choice when being asked what is most likely to make them happy Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52838675520944573292017-07-05T11:26:59.301-04:002017-07-05T11:26:59.301-04:00Democratic values are irrational. The science is b...Democratic values are irrational. The science is based and develops on rational principles. The rational methodology of knowledge of the world leads to creation of the rational model of society in the progress final, unfortunately.<br /><br />I see the decision from an opposite side. The rational science is not strict. We can, and we should build a strict science. <br /><br />I see the decision sevashko2014@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14658939824936548070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-70237024103639266672017-07-02T05:45:47.832-04:002017-07-02T05:45:47.832-04:00I found this post very interesting, but eventuall...I found this post very interesting, but eventually disagreed with it. While I really appreciated the analysis of democracy as a sensibile form of adaptive optimization, I think that the idea of a fourth branch of the government and Gilbert's idea to weigh differently votes are flawed.<br /><br />As for the fourth -scientific- arm of the administration: it might be perfect to correctly Francesco Rocchihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693000339626273383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-83438571373411517542017-07-01T07:12:46.185-04:002017-07-01T07:12:46.185-04:00Phillip,
George is right, you are illustrating ex...Phillip,<br /><br />George is right, you are illustrating exactly the problem I was emphasizing. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-6972349600290238882017-07-01T06:47:59.837-04:002017-07-01T06:47:59.837-04:00@Phillip Helbig, I don't "enjoy construct...@Phillip Helbig, I don't "enjoy constructing strawmen to attack". Indeed, I abhor rhetorical tricks. (Although sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.) If I constructed a strawman, which I doubt, it was accidental. However I was wrong to use sarcasm. I don't blame you for being annoyed. Please accept my apology. <br /><br />Since you don't respond to my point, I'll George Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10079808299277959750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-45688491353472345472017-06-29T12:10:42.708-04:002017-06-29T12:10:42.708-04:00@George Rush:
Why do you enjoy constructing so ma...@George Rush:<br /><br />Why do you enjoy constructing so many strawmen to attack?<br /><br />Science is not democratic. One can't vote on the mass of the electron. It is a measurable quantity. Truth is not decided by vote. That's what Bee means, nothing to do with authoritarian politics.<br /><br />Yes, in every sensible society, one's freedom ends where the freedom of others is Phillip Helbighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067585245603436809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-60126730177671533462017-06-28T22:36:28.685-04:002017-06-28T22:36:28.685-04:00Luca S. said: ... “science is not democratic”, whi...Luca S. said: ... “science is not democratic”, which to me sounds like an excuse for someone to justify some authoritarian or semi-fascist fantasy. ... It underscores a troubling “sympathy for authoritarian politics” that to me seems to be more and more common among “science enthusiasts".<br /><br />Case in point:<br /><br />Phillip Helbig said: ... in every sensible society, one's George Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10079808299277959750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-66037352839410422132017-06-27T14:57:25.860-04:002017-06-27T14:57:25.860-04:00"That vaccine debate that you mentioned, for ...<i>"That vaccine debate that you mentioned, for example. It’s one question what are the benefits of vaccination and who is at risk from side-effects – that’s a scientific debate. It’s another question entirely whether we should allow parents to put their and other peoples’ children at an increased risk of early death or a life of disability. There’s no scientific and no logical argument thatPhillip Helbighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067585245603436809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-31827293440467218062017-06-27T11:46:26.755-04:002017-06-27T11:46:26.755-04:00Sabine,
I enjoyed the article, it gave me a bette...Sabine,<br /><br />I enjoyed the article, it gave me a better perspective when you pointed out the "feedback loop" in the systems mentioned. While at some level it's been understood, the precise term added clarity to the underpinnings of such systems.<br /><br />Lou Louis Tagliaferrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16698865662162457632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84326885800245589042017-06-26T17:36:53.797-04:002017-06-26T17:36:53.797-04:00A couple of thoughts:
Evolution does not produce ...A couple of thoughts:<br /><br />Evolution does not produce what is optimal; it can only choose the better of the currently available alternatives. My own personal health often reminds me of that. But of course I am using my own concept of "optimal" to make that evaluation...<br /><br />A "free market" is a theoretical construct somewhat useful in modeling and giraluahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10633091966509005486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-23353445421707090912017-06-26T17:12:16.577-04:002017-06-26T17:12:16.577-04:00Very interesting discussion, but you may have open...Very interesting discussion, but you may have opened a Pandora’s Box of long-lived, radioactive isotopes. Frontier areas of physics are toying with some ideas that are frightening to me especially if misapplied politically. Historical example: from Darwinism to social Darwinism to eugenics to ethnic cleansing. Novel concepts like the block universe model, the breakdown of causality, or even RockyOkiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00847894083823316600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-76753424549132914632017-06-26T13:30:57.211-04:002017-06-26T13:30:57.211-04:00Another way of stating the adaptive-systems analog...Another way of stating the adaptive-systems analogy might be to say that votes are to a democracy as empirical evidence is to science. Candidates with the most votes win in a democracy (theoretically) and theories with the most empirical evidence win in science (theoretically). Further, it would be better (if possible) to replace votes with empirical evidence (as to who are the best candidates), JimVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10198704789965278981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85643539902781773222017-06-26T11:31:51.287-04:002017-06-26T11:31:51.287-04:00Your common-sensical grounded viewpoint on social ...Your common-sensical grounded viewpoint on social and political issues always refreshing to me! Good essay Dr. H. Thanks! Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03016608637645316849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-83559603131784932682017-06-26T10:40:00.471-04:002017-06-26T10:40:00.471-04:00"It uses feedback for optimization," the..."<i>It uses feedback for optimization</i>," the antithesis of management (Table of Command) and social intent (the most to the worst). Empirical bad news ascending from below battles fictional good news descending from above. Reality is not a peer vote.<br /><br />https://netwar.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/feminist-epistemology/<br /><br />Aristotle (rigorous derivation is sufficient) Uncle Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05056804084187606211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-45773639523570417832017-06-26T09:50:00.857-04:002017-06-26T09:50:00.857-04:00Euphonium,
I actually meant 'approve'.Euphonium,<br /><br />I actually meant 'approve'.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11197372400947592402017-06-26T08:54:01.000-04:002017-06-26T08:54:01.000-04:00"...because an independent leader is unlikely..."...because an independent leader is unlikely to continuously make decisions which the governed people approve of. "<br />should be:<br />disapprove of.Euphoniumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06816053523107992750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41860607876021465182017-06-26T08:29:43.547-04:002017-06-26T08:29:43.547-04:00Tony,
As I pointed out explicitly, science clearl...Tony,<br /><br />As I pointed out explicitly, science clearly doesn't always work as it should, in case that's what you mean. I am referring to both pure and applied science. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-87071152818032639982017-06-26T08:10:27.598-04:002017-06-26T08:10:27.598-04:00Bee:
That was a very eloquent and thoughtful resp...Bee:<br /><br />That was a very eloquent and thoughtful response, which has definitively answered a question I’ve pondered for a long time. The late Admiral “Amazing” Grace Hopper frequently gave talks about the early days when she had been a pioneer in computer software. She emphasized the importance of building efficient computer programs by handing out foot long pieces of wire to illustrate a Leibnizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04827088342775947674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49999375078309626082017-06-26T07:53:07.251-04:002017-06-26T07:53:07.251-04:00Oh, yeah I think there is a lot of hatred in the b...Oh, yeah I think there is a lot of hatred in the back rooms of science. Scientists can be very catty, sometimes. Andrew Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256719572679458530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50416585214365955362017-06-26T07:27:33.876-04:002017-06-26T07:27:33.876-04:00There might be some ambiguity in this post, Sabine...There might be some ambiguity in this post, Sabine. Are you referring to pure or applied science? Also, are you referring to democracy in a political sense, or the sense of new theories being accepted on their merits (technically, a meritocracy) rather than being vetted by a few with power, influence, and an alternative agenda. The history of science is littered with examples of work being Tony Proctorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330460400737261264noreply@blogger.com