tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post5207599670801749056..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: Yes, women in science still have a disadvantage. Sabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80679258077151440982018-10-24T03:36:58.974-04:002018-10-24T03:36:58.974-04:00@unknown
Not enough room to say that (hit the 409...@unknown<br /><br />Not enough room to say that (hit the 4096 limit) to say that the traits measured were "altruism, trust, risk, patience, and positive and negative reciprocity" all which are sugar and spice traits.<br /><br />The study would make more sense if it included snips and snails and puppy dog tails:<br /><br />What are little boys made of?<br /> Snips and snails<br /> And Liralenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08422464644211442615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-88649716346577668302018-10-24T03:08:07.907-04:002018-10-24T03:08:07.907-04:00@Unknown - I don't think you actually read the...@Unknown - I don't think you actually read the link you posted. <br /><br />For example: "The work does not address why women and men overall scored differently on these traits — for instance, whether this gender gap is biological or if it is imparted by the culture."<br /><br />and<br /><br />“We find enough variability across countries to indicate that people respond to the Liralenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08422464644211442615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-41857861638718879092018-10-22T20:49:41.058-04:002018-10-22T20:49:41.058-04:00Women quickly learn that whatever they do gets dis...Women quickly learn that whatever they do gets discounted, typically by about 30%. Anything they say gets ignored. Any contribution gets downgraded as unimportant. Hard work is taken for granted. The general rule for women who want to achieve is to get into a job with a solid, objective metric. That's why a lot of women go into real estate. You sell the property, you get your share of the Kaleberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283840743310507878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-45467643653304790962018-10-22T13:20:43.595-04:002018-10-22T13:20:43.595-04:00The problem with the current system is that it mak...The problem with the current system is that it makes too many men look like they only got the job because of their sex, not their competence. How can one have confidence in a field when most of its practitioners have been chosen for their genetics rather than their abilities? You'd think that physics departments would recruit more women and make the workplace more woman friendly just out of Kaleberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283840743310507878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-24704850575807349872018-10-22T12:19:38.507-04:002018-10-22T12:19:38.507-04:00Unknown: “... the underlying assumption is that w...Unknown: “<i>... the underlying assumption is that women want the same thing as Men, and the only reason for less Women in sciences is some discrimination. That assumption needs proof.</i>”<br /><br />We have plenty of testimony from women in science as to what they want and what they experience; that’s proof enough. Or do you think what women say about themselves and their wants is <i>sean s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04190153587965701495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-49450462075507776832018-10-22T08:56:14.961-04:002018-10-22T08:56:14.961-04:00Doesn't this mix results with causes? the unde...Doesn't this mix results with causes? the underlying assumption is that women want the same thing as Men, and the only reason for less Women in sciences is some discrimination. That assumption needs proof.<br />http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-women-equality-preferences-20181018-story.htmlUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17436165164969205077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-87035616251519519692018-10-16T15:45:17.006-04:002018-10-16T15:45:17.006-04:00There are a few other factors that affect both men...There are a few other factors that affect both men and women, and I guess women a bit more than men. A very negative thing that we tend not to find all that bad for obvious reasons, is the public image of scientists doing extraordinary difficult jobs when it's actually not all that different from most other jobs. When I (as a man) talk to people explaining what I do, they think that you need Count Iblishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17234653545597441999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-7783704009024161272018-10-15T14:09:46.155-04:002018-10-15T14:09:46.155-04:00"Perhaps the best option is to trust that peo..."Perhaps the best option is to trust that people who deserve to be where they want to be get there despite the obstacles- such a thing is not unknown."<br /><br />This sounds like you do not oppose affirmative action? As you write Men "who deserve to be where they want to be get there despite the obstacles".Rob van Son (Not a physicist, just an amateur)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12611755507524401026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-36017455427166287402018-10-15T13:13:33.113-04:002018-10-15T13:13:33.113-04:00David English:
“There is no good, massive respons...David English:<br /><br />“<i>There is no good, massive response ...</i>”<br /><br />Sure there is; <i><b>look for and hire more women</b></i> (or other disadvantaged people).<br /><br />“<i>... I do know that hostile acts beget hostile acts. Therefore hostility- in any form (such as employing the same tactics) won't work.</i>”<br /><br />Why do you think the desire to be treated fairly is a sean s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04190153587965701495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-87724515950950079332018-10-15T08:37:16.558-04:002018-10-15T08:37:16.558-04:00Sean,
"How should we respond to the on-goin...Sean, <br /><br />"How should we respond to the on-going harm?"<br /><br />There is no good, massive response- however, I do know that hostile acts beget hostile acts. Therefore hostility- in any form (such as employing the same tactics) won't work.<br /><br />I'll employ another Red Herring: People at work think I like them. Such an environment is necessary for me (and the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202408094693948018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-88502804987555468912018-10-15T05:24:38.733-04:002018-10-15T05:24:38.733-04:00This discussion has a very US centric approach. Ma...This discussion has a very US centric approach. Many assertions made about gender preferences cannot be extrapolated to other countries. <br /><br />When you look at the enrollment of girls in different regions and countries you see a large variation. For instance, in Slovenia, girls make up 60% of the students taking courses in advanced mathematics, in Italy and Lebanon it is only 37% (USA: 49%)Rob van Son (Not a physicist, just an amateur)https://www.blogger.com/profile/12611755507524401026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-30944308743722154302018-10-15T02:38:38.966-04:002018-10-15T02:38:38.966-04:00@Luca,
"I have three sons, the first two are ...@Luca,<br />"I have three sons, the first two are daughters": is that a typo, a joke, or some kind of Freudian slip?<br /><br />More seriously, your anecdote would rather show that there is no discrimination. There are all sorts of societal pressures of course, going in all directions, but in your case the net effect was nil, as your daughter did go on to study physics.TheLambLiesDownOnBroadwayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148586222290109507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-36620762747632988962018-10-14T22:08:13.286-04:002018-10-14T22:08:13.286-04:00I just think that if women are interested in physi...I just think that if women are interested in physics, then they will study it. And the women who have a passion for it will succeed. I don't think the fact that fewer men are nurses means that there is a disadvantage for them. I think it means fewer men find it interesting. Men make perfectly good nurses and women can make perfectly good physicists.Seth Thatcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01014449367329717832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2904346589733840712018-10-14T16:53:40.542-04:002018-10-14T16:53:40.542-04:00JimV: “A theme in the comments here is that, to bo...JimV: “<i>A theme in the comments here is that, to borrow the phrase David English used, ‘Using sexism to combat sexism is not a lasting solution.’ Exactly – not a </i>lasting solution<i>, because affirmative action (i.e., taking steps to redress historical invidious discrimination) was never intended to be permanent.</i>’<br /><br />Thank you for this comment, you are quite correct. I am not a sean s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04190153587965701495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11050436696701918652018-10-14T16:51:43.872-04:002018-10-14T16:51:43.872-04:00David English: “Identity politics bears the risk o...David English: “<i>Identity politics bears the risk of inflicting on others what it claims to be evil. The risk is enhanced when the guilty are guilty by virtue of accusation.</i>”<br /><br /><b>Identity politics</b> is what gender discrimination is; it’s what the academy has been doing all along; it’s why women are disadvantaged. (I think you acknowledged this at the end of your comment.)<br /><sean s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04190153587965701495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11084832920696570562018-10-14T14:00:26.309-04:002018-10-14T14:00:26.309-04:00Seems to me the situation is pretty obvious. Women...Seems to me the situation is pretty obvious. Women naturally gravitate toward nurturing efforts, men toward those less so. Much less so. This 'men and women are equal' is exponential ridiculousness, as ridiculous as some whacked out lawyer/politician/'judge" assertion that D-11 Cat's and dolphins are equal (not fantastical at all. I can think of many in that group who'd APEppinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13169743106191038924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58397034531318075992018-10-13T08:44:01.102-04:002018-10-13T08:44:01.102-04:00What I do not see here are statistics on how many ...What I do not see here are statistics on how many women entering college declare physics as a major as a benchmark with respect to how many graduate with a BS/BA in physics. My prior teaching experience with teaching undergraduate courses is the gender balance was pretty skewed towards males.<br /><br />What also is not being mentioned is our world in general is filled with a social-psychology ofLawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64828141999853850292018-10-13T02:05:57.405-04:002018-10-13T02:05:57.405-04:00A theme in the comments here is that, to borrow th...A theme in the comments here is that, to borrow the phrase David English used, “Using sexism to combat sexism is not a lasting solution.” Exactly – not a <i>lasting solution,</i> because affirmative action (i.e., taking steps to redress historical invidious discrimination) was never intended to be permanent. It can’t be, because it is ultimately untenable politically, because it puts relativelyJim Shillidayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10544709134684735232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77718263345769750352018-10-12T08:55:43.107-04:002018-10-12T08:55:43.107-04:00Sean, thank you for your comment.
"I think w...Sean, thank you for your comment.<br /><br />"I think we all agree that "gender does not equate to qualification" but currently scientists act as if it does. They'll never admit it, but that's how they act."<br /><br />Identity politics bears the risk of inflicting on others what it claims to be evil. The risk is enhanced when the guilty are guilty by virtue of Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18202408094693948018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52817656841807207772018-10-12T06:00:25.154-04:002018-10-12T06:00:25.154-04:00There are many obstacles in physics, Sabine, but I...There are many obstacles in physics, Sabine, but I'm not personally aware of a gender-based one (not the same as me saying there isn't one). The insecurities of some men (ref: "... left to constantly apologize...") admittedly get into all aspects of life. When I obtained my degree, though, there were two women awarded first-class honours degrees, and overall this was actually a Tony Proctorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330460400737261264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13729784438903548302018-10-12T04:48:49.129-04:002018-10-12T04:48:49.129-04:00I have three sons, the first two are daughters, an...I have three sons, the first two are daughters, and I would say substantially gifted, cognitively speaking (but ok, I am just her father).<br /><br />I remember when the oldest was still in middle school, my father-in-law was worried because she was getting too high marks, and that could compromise her future relations with boys and men.<br /><br />Just to give a sense of all the bullshit that Lucahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07878744590151886949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-20899716390712862742018-10-12T03:54:42.310-04:002018-10-12T03:54:42.310-04:00@Mark
"women are simply less willing to destr...@Mark<br />"women are simply less willing to destroy their lives to play the fiercely competitive/stressful game". Very good point indeed! I observe the same in academia, and, like you, I don't understand why this is perceived as negative.<br />Some activists simply take the typical male behaviour (competitive, workaholic, obsessively focused) as the ultimate role model. I just failTheLambLiesDownOnBroadwayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07148586222290109507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-89650124750448486902018-10-12T03:24:46.836-04:002018-10-12T03:24:46.836-04:00bee:
"Men tend to underestimate how pervasiv...bee:<br /><br />"Men tend to underestimate how pervasive these stereotypes are, and how tiresome it is to always be the weird one. ". <br /><br />EVERY theoretical physicist i know, including myself, knows how tiresome it is to always be the weird one. We all know what it is to tell someone what we do (physics) and invariably trigger a compulsion for that person to confess to: (1) naivetheoristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00425164894020381981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-38617885088114763912018-10-12T00:44:53.067-04:002018-10-12T00:44:53.067-04:00Olly,
I understand the point you are making about...Olly,<br /><br />I understand the point you are making about risk-taking, but you are conflating two different risks: The one the lack of job-security (which I mention in my blogpost), the other the risk that one's research project turns out to be useless, fails, and doesn't make a contribution to progress. The former is a structural problem that can be fixed. The latter comes with the Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-52694091473639935422018-10-11T18:57:22.631-04:002018-10-11T18:57:22.631-04:00I think any such analysis requires consideration o...I think any such analysis requires consideration of how much women want to do physics? (Or anything else, for that matter.) Of course some do, and the is great, but many do not. My daughter would to consider science - she went into medicine because the money is better, and the job security is extremely better. My son also said to me, "I don't want to have to put up with all the things Ian Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17252375814985734176noreply@blogger.com