tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post3579485082156151284..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: The Real Butterfly EffectSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-86781692831309111252020-01-15T09:05:19.764-05:002020-01-15T09:05:19.764-05:00I tried to make a point, sean s., that there is no...I tried to make a point, sean s., that there is no such thing as an initial condition.matsbergenhovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16870814684714186681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-25255738831760758182020-01-14T13:35:06.174-05:002020-01-14T13:35:06.174-05:00Dear James
As lead author of the paper “The Real ...Dear James<br /><br />As lead author of the paper “The Real Butterfly Effect” to which Sabine refers in her video, could I start by saying that in my opinion your book "Chaos: Making of a New Science" is one of the finest popular science books of all time. It is a masterpiece! <br /><br />The issue, however, is that Ed Lorenz wrote two key papers on predictability whose mathematical Tim Palmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18060768329646907831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-64459477200548802152020-01-14T10:18:50.914-05:002020-01-14T10:18:50.914-05:00I get the sense, matsbergenhov, that you didn'...I get the sense, matsbergenhov, that you didn't actually read Sabine's post.<br /><br />sean s.sean s.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04190153587965701495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14986059205007786622020-01-14T09:13:57.176-05:002020-01-14T09:13:57.176-05:00The butterfly in the Butterfly Effect must be a fi...The butterfly in the Butterfly Effect must be a first cause which is impossible.matsbergenhovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16870814684714186681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-7004310061814216622020-01-14T08:26:45.612-05:002020-01-14T08:26:45.612-05:00Your explanation of the idea or set of ideas descr...Your explanation of the idea or set of ideas described by the shorthand “Butterfly Effect” is excellent, in my view. I agree entirely—except for the implication that you’re contradicting the version I described in Chaos: Making a New Science. My understanding, based on long discussion with Lorenz, has always been the same as yours. The fact that Lorenz originally used a seagull is also in my bookJames Gleickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16395667183964798618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-91854226177653694592020-01-14T08:15:48.575-05:002020-01-14T08:15:48.575-05:00This is pure speculation. Nobody has gone into the...This is pure speculation. Nobody has gone into the past and stepped on a butterfly, and we cannot experiment by making tiny perturbations in the worlds weather, so we can't say what really happens.Peter Shorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13823970640202949073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-68959106502717041782020-01-09T05:24:20.963-05:002020-01-09T05:24:20.963-05:00Superdeterminism. It is removed as UV stuff that i...Superdeterminism. It is removed as UV stuff that is cut-off.Lawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-2210586139718416562020-01-09T01:23:05.179-05:002020-01-09T01:23:05.179-05:00Which structure is "this structure" that...Which structure is "this structure" that might be removed by renormalization? I can't follow, sorry. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-13164864439711814442020-01-08T22:10:49.201-05:002020-01-08T22:10:49.201-05:00Those are zero frequency changes to constant initi...Those are zero frequency changes to constant initial conditions. They will change the solution, possibly chaotically. But for small transients, if the solution is some sort of superposition of normal processes then at some point there will be a cut-off frequency, above which output amplitude goes down.<br />If small transients do cause solutions to diverge then it’s probably an artefact of Ishmaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05262210886135237629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-50552241876780311122020-01-08T13:47:46.072-05:002020-01-08T13:47:46.072-05:00P-adic number theory is funny in that it inverts o...P-adic number theory is funny in that it inverts our ordinary sense of "closeness." Numbers that are very large in a sense "converge" or become close.<br /><br />The idea of superdeterminism might turn out to be of some merit after all. In a p-adic renormalization group flow this structure might be what is removed by renormalization.<br /><br />LCLawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-92074391896108004362020-01-08T06:21:48.881-05:002020-01-08T06:21:48.881-05:00Lawrence,
Yes thanks. I think it is important to ...Lawrence,<br /><br />Yes thanks. I think it is important to try to understand this distinction computable <--> non-computable better from the perspective of physics. In fact I have considered a term "weak non-computability" to describe the kind of non-computability which arises in relation to Godel's Theorem: it can be hard to spot sometimes.<br /><br />I have also encounteredRoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18331240261199344334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-61451167489383809242020-01-07T23:53:44.907-05:002020-01-07T23:53:44.907-05:00Piffle, It’s well understood that exceedingly smal...Piffle, It’s well understood that exceedingly small differences in initial conditions result in divergent solutions.Munchausenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10834903430997212803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-43266980148444463592020-01-07T18:43:38.116-05:002020-01-07T18:43:38.116-05:00There is a sort of relationship to Gödel's the...There is a sort of relationship to Gödel's theorem. Recursive sets are complementary to recursive sets. Recursively enumerable sets are not complementary to recursively enumerable (RE) sets. Recursive functions, say maps between recursive sets, are halting algorithms. The dynamics corresponding to such function means a system has some regular orbit, limit cycle or attractor point. A strange Lawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-30122404355165462332020-01-07T12:28:52.161-05:002020-01-07T12:28:52.161-05:00Ignat,
Because the additional measurements give y...Ignat,<br /><br />Because the additional measurements give you additional prediction time. Also, please avoid submitting a comment multiple times if I am not fast enough approving the first. It doesn't make me any faster, it just clogs up the queue. Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-32101440144208734072020-01-07T10:53:12.222-05:002020-01-07T10:53:12.222-05:00Oof that's definitely a big error. But yeah, s...Oof that's definitely a big error. But yeah, still far too large of a system to solve in practice, though there are many good approximations in different contexts.Andrew Krausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04218551346108756927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-73791210560055892552020-01-07T10:15:20.335-05:002020-01-07T10:15:20.335-05:00I always appreciate efforts to set the record stra...I always appreciate efforts to set the record straight on popularized terms. For a long time, I pointed people to this article: https://www.livescience.com/17455-butterfly-effect-weather-prediction.htmlBen P. Steinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06783571658813098715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56206276768780837922020-01-07T10:04:42.027-05:002020-01-07T10:04:42.027-05:00The Lorentz attractor is a fractal with Hausdorff ...The Lorentz attractor is a fractal with Hausdorff dimension around 2.06. That is close to two dimensions. However, the chaotic dynamics is tied to the fractional dimension of this attractor set.Lawrence Crowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090839464038445335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-55480412121224244572020-01-07T09:05:46.778-05:002020-01-07T09:05:46.778-05:00Sorry for a very naive question, but why do we add...Sorry for a very naive question, but why do we add (2 1/2)/2 = 1 1/4 days on the second step, and not (5+2 1/2)/2 = 3 3/4 days?Ignathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01899493653701421833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34600712462981168502020-01-07T08:14:39.683-05:002020-01-07T08:14:39.683-05:00And then there is the interesting fact that, from ...And then there is the interesting fact that, from certain points of view, the <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=lorenz+attractor&client=firefox-b-1-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNQGP0s828esgV2VZ2BX0ix1e-UwXQ:1578402755552&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZmLq8yPHmAhVim-AKHetdCwkQ_AUoAnoECBMQBA&biw=1192&bih=599" rel="nofollow">2D visualization of the Lorenz attractor</a>Bill Benzonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360044945265178991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-78833384394257631372020-01-07T07:46:15.883-05:002020-01-07T07:46:15.883-05:00I just commented the same thing before reading you...I just commented the same thing before reading your post.Roberto Aguirre Maturanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00522047788308686305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-77531380149373029612020-01-07T07:44:55.749-05:002020-01-07T07:44:55.749-05:00I think the real inspiration of the "Butterfl...I think the real inspiration of the "Butterfly Effect" idea is Ray Bradbury's short story "A Sound of Thunder".Roberto Aguirre Maturanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00522047788308686305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-58052699542232735302020-01-07T06:36:02.854-05:002020-01-07T06:36:02.854-05:00Does not everything affect everything in the speed...Does not everything affect everything in the speed of light due to propagation of the forces?<br /><br />Even pushing a pin :)Poro4https://www.blogger.com/profile/15333110664918908272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-67659364323361423262020-01-07T01:46:58.065-05:002020-01-07T01:46:58.065-05:00The term owes to Ray Bradbury's short story &q...The term owes to Ray Bradbury's short story "A Sound of Thunder."Naradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15502844680171722740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-63470979689151399912020-01-06T21:27:25.425-05:002020-01-06T21:27:25.425-05:00There must exist a time scale before quantum fluct...There must exist a time scale before quantum fluctuations makes everything random where there is a correlation between a particular perturbation happening or not happening and a specific event. Suppose I vigorously flap my hand right now. Then some time T later a tornado hits a US town. If T is smaller than the time scale at which quantum fluctuations erase all correlations between the initial Count Iblishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07429017672028256731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-19927204066423620252020-01-06T21:12:49.968-05:002020-01-06T21:12:49.968-05:00This is related to classical mechanics being in ge...This is related to classical mechanics being in general uncomputable. An explicit construction of an analogue computer based on classical mechanics that speeds up exponentially has been given in the literature. It cannot work due to classical mechanics not being valid at sufficiently small length scales. Such a device would be able to solve the halting problem. It could prove the Riemann Count Iblishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07429017672028256731noreply@blogger.com