tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post2973042295757362719..comments2023-09-27T07:44:19.769-04:00Comments on Sabine Hossenfelder: Backreaction: On the measurement of happinessSabine Hossenfelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-84979082754480507762012-04-22T11:50:27.117-04:002012-04-22T11:50:27.117-04:00Michael,
If you really think what the righteousne...Michael,<br /><br />If you really think what the righteousness means, you cannot mean what you say. This is the most terrible scenario of all? Humans have dreams and goals, often unrealistic, they have predictions, will etc.<br /><br />The important thing for evolution is the potential possibilities. It cannot be genes, because the phenotype (genes + ENVIRONMENT) is the evolutionary important oneUllahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634036177244152897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-85443188324936899702011-05-25T07:07:55.480-04:002011-05-25T07:07:55.480-04:00Luke, you are wise and yotr thoughts are not trivi...Luke, you are wise and yotr thoughts are not trivial at all, and thanks. <br /><br />There is an often misquoted passage from the Bible, from Timothy: "Money is the root of all evil." The correct passage reads: "The <i>love</i> of money is the root of all evil."<br /><br />Money <=== It ain't everything, but it sure comes in handy when it's time to pay the bills. Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-90405592383481311582011-05-24T22:48:06.474-04:002011-05-24T22:48:06.474-04:00All else equal, a dollar is worth more to a poor m...All else equal, a dollar is worth more to a poor man than a rich one. That is an axiom not an empirical proposition. It is part of the ideal of human equality, derived from our own personal experience that a dollar is worth more to us when we are poor than when we are rich. We assume that other people are like us, and that, as a society, everybody's happiness is equally important. Of Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-28979384400422878642011-05-23T10:51:16.034-04:002011-05-23T10:51:16.034-04:00Hi Michael,
“People should prefer righteousness t...Hi Michael,<br /><br /><i>“People should prefer righteousness to happiness -- that is, they should do what they think is right, instead of what they think will feel good.”</i><br /><br />I shutter when people invoke “righteousness” as being their credo, as it usually entails thinking in terms of things only in absolutes. That is from a scientific perspective all truths are provisional, with the Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34535175098599830102011-05-23T09:53:00.767-04:002011-05-23T09:53:00.767-04:00People should prefer righteousness to happiness --...People should prefer righteousness to happiness -- that is, they should do what they think is right, instead of what they think will feel good.Michael Goginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07300917064580760923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-91227271465936750462011-05-13T12:47:40.088-04:002011-05-13T12:47:40.088-04:00Would somebody PLEASE post! I absolutely HATE havi...Would somebody PLEASE post! I absolutely HATE having my name at the top of the queue. Me shy. :)Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-24927320023942343422011-05-12T10:33:23.821-04:002011-05-12T10:33:23.821-04:00Hi Bee,
I would like to add, that I meant it is n...Hi Bee,<br /><br />I would like to add, that I meant it is not possible to fully understand the brain and how it works, since how to describe the mind ? Thus happiness cannot completely be understood.<br /><br />Best, KayKay zum Feldehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04233793196547147876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-56431437531529519412011-05-12T07:51:57.534-04:002011-05-12T07:51:57.534-04:00Hi Joel,
Just to expand on Bee's point, expla...Hi Joel,<br /><br />Just to expand on Bee's point, explain why if life’s goal is rooted in reproduction that more complex life formed evolved? That is why would nature even bother when quantitatively on both the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology)#Global_biomass" rel="nofollow">individual and biomass level</a> single cell organisms followed by simple creatures comprise to Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34997162425625544052011-05-12T07:07:06.445-04:002011-05-12T07:07:06.445-04:00Hi Joel,
This may be a matter of semantics. You c...Hi Joel,<br /><br />This may be a matter of semantics. You can reproduce all you want, if your offspring doesn't survive it doesn't matter. A lot of offspring is just beneficial because it improves the chances of survival. Best,<br /><br />B.Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-42124978512636646522011-05-12T07:00:12.917-04:002011-05-12T07:00:12.917-04:00Hi Steven,
Yes there is so much more and yet only...Hi Steven,<br /><br />Yes there is so much more and yet only more to have left unassessed. So then what is your point; that is other than supporting my own? <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />PhilPhil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-20883858217176091772011-05-11T21:50:44.755-04:002011-05-11T21:50:44.755-04:00If we wanted to maximize happiness, in the sense o...If we wanted to maximize happiness, in the sense of an overabundance of neurochemicals. You could probably do it relatively cheaply.<br /><br />Placing individuals in a vat of heroin or something like that would likely keep them very happy, all the while keeping healthcare costs down as their life expectancy would vanish.<br /><br />I suspect that most people would not be content with this Haelfixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272773184971292247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-28377621679679735622011-05-11T20:57:08.918-04:002011-05-11T20:57:08.918-04:00> from an evolutionary perspective the driving ...> from an evolutionary perspective the driving force is survival.<br /><br />No.<br /><br />The driving force is <em>reproduction</em>. Survival of the individual is often discarded in favor of reproduction -- for example, male spiders and mantids, or (for that matter) the showing-off behaviors of human teenagers.<br /><br />And last I knew, biologists had just about completely discarded the joel haneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11946546309257239019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-80302225366723851312011-05-11T08:18:47.578-04:002011-05-11T08:18:47.578-04:00Well, Phil, I could have used better language, but...Well, Phil, I could have used better language, but getting to your point re "screwing", we've all seen how puppies behave vs dogs, and kittens vs cats, and are humans so special we're any different? I don't think so.<br /><br />But the kids today have something we never has as youth: the Personal Computer. M'kay. We don't remember a time without television either, Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-7029188617450526232011-05-11T06:36:30.152-04:002011-05-11T06:36:30.152-04:00Hi Steven,
“Screw quality, Phil, it's all met...Hi Steven,<br /><br />“Screw quality, Phil, it's all metrics now”<br /><br />Sadly I would have to agree, as it’s obvious with those examples I gave many today find the quantity of screwing more relevant than determining the quality of what’s screwed:-)<br /><br /><i><b>”Love begins with an image; lust with a sensation.”</b></i><br /><br />-Mason Cooley<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />PhilPhil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-12800596443486826482011-05-11T06:04:13.890-04:002011-05-11T06:04:13.890-04:00Hi Bee,
“That would correspond e.g. to the agent ...Hi Bee,<br /><br />“<i><b>That would correspond e.g. to the agent of putting his bananas on a pile and hoping for somebody to bring milk and a mixer. As before we then see that the number of possibilities at one time is not a particularly insightful quantity. This space is vast, but a lot of the possible actions will significantly decrease future possibilities. (The bananas may just rot away.) Phil Warnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15671311338712852659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-55744900745545225962011-05-11T04:21:38.809-04:002011-05-11T04:21:38.809-04:00Holy Jeremy Bentham and his "Fierific calculu...Holy Jeremy Bentham and his "Fierific calculus" attempts to metricize "happiness", which, like money, changes hands frequently. <br /><br />Bee, I can't believe success and happiness are synonyms. I can give upteen examples of some very successful people who are good at one thing more than any other: FAKING happiness, and cases where societal "losers" (I'm Steven Colyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10435759210177642257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-23904019151194435502011-05-10T18:00:24.471-04:002011-05-10T18:00:24.471-04:00Hi Eric,
Yes, it is very possibly the case that w...Hi Eric,<br /><br />Yes, it is very possibly the case that we disagree on what the importance of the individual in the community concerns. But that's a question of judgement and really my post and my paper doesn't make a judgement on that. I even explicitly wrote in the paper that these questions still remain open. What I am saying is just that the attempt to measure happiness is fatally Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-16043513516126200132011-05-10T17:11:51.223-04:002011-05-10T17:11:51.223-04:00Giotis, that is hogwash and over intellectualizati...Giotis, that is hogwash and over intellectualization. If you have ever successfully meditated you would have realized the bliss that is experienced comes when you surrender the ego and become part of the one. That, if you have ever experienced it, is true happiness.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08213251864943443334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-11994354846119560632011-05-10T17:06:10.314-04:002011-05-10T17:06:10.314-04:00This kind of 'collective' happiness can on...This kind of 'collective' happiness can only be understood within the context of a specific cultural and sociological environment; its meaning is bounded by society to serve its needs. In this sense it's a cheap manipulation of an inner agony. <br /><br />True happiness on the other hand can only have a personal meaning. It acquires its substance within you and by you.Giotishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03594944884584261018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-34377463305037906402011-05-10T16:44:40.353-04:002011-05-10T16:44:40.353-04:00Hi Bee,
I'm not following your argument I gues...Hi Bee,<br />I'm not following your argument I guess. And perhaps we are talking past each other. But I think perhaps we just disagree also. Selfishness is part of the human condition along with generosity. Like everything in life there is a duality. You choose what part you accentuate. You can choose to accentuate social Darwinism or you can choose to accentuate the health of the community Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08213251864943443334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-14262405788726509242011-05-10T14:48:46.802-04:002011-05-10T14:48:46.802-04:00Hi Eric,
We're talking totally past each othe...Hi Eric,<br /><br />We're talking totally past each other. Yes, my question about the billionaire's trauma was made jokingly so, but for the purpose of making you think exactly what is the rationale for weighting people's experience in one particular manner and not some other one. <br /><br />Look, I believe in social democracy and I'm all in favor of taxing the rich. My problem Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-92158121725469069822011-05-10T14:38:00.921-04:002011-05-10T14:38:00.921-04:00Yes Bee, I agree we "do" optimize.
Hidd...Yes Bee, I agree we "do" optimize.<br /><br /><i><b>Hidden Layers</b><br /><br />When I first took up the piano, merely hitting each note required my concentrated attention. With practice, however, I began to work in phrases and chords. Eventually I was able to produce much better music with much less conscious effort.<br /><br />Evidently, something powerful had happened in my brain.</PlatoHagelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00849253658526056393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-90891884266239974752011-05-10T14:31:28.311-04:002011-05-10T14:31:28.311-04:00Bee, I'm not sure I understand you when you as...Bee, I'm not sure I understand you when you ask " what if the billionaire is traumatized?" Are you saying that facetiously? The whole problem it seems to me is the level of taxation that is currently employed in individual countries.<br />I am speaking as a member of the USA where there has never been a lower opportunity for upward mobility than there is now. This coincides with theErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08213251864943443334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-4179939181644824492011-05-10T14:02:32.183-04:002011-05-10T14:02:32.183-04:00Hi Eric,
I think you misunderstood what I said. I...Hi Eric,<br /><br />I think you misunderstood what I said. I am not at all denying that there are measures other than the number of possibilities according to which some quantity increases in the mentioned transfer from the billionaire to some baby. There are many social welfare functions that have been discussed in the literature, and I am reasonably sure that pretty much all of them would Sabine Hossenfelderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06151209308084588985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22973357.post-15201719488212267202011-05-10T13:53:45.037-04:002011-05-10T13:53:45.037-04:00Bee, while I think most of your comments to commen...Bee, while I think most of your comments to commenters were relevant I think you gave Len short shrift. What he said about the QOL increases vs decreases in rebalancing SOME of a billionair's assets is absolutely true. To say otherwise is simply not to recognize an inconvenient reality.<br /><br />What is even worse is that denying that goes against the main premise of your post, which is to Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08213251864943443334noreply@blogger.com