Tuesday, October 07, 2008

Save the Global Economy Day

I'm only reading the headlines in my newsticker these days, but that is already sufficient:

Financial Crises Spread in Europe - Stock market rout resumes - Bush talks to European allies about markets - IMF seeks co-ordinated global action on crisis - Iceland Seeks Emergency Loan From Russia - Europe Seeks Unified Policy on Bank Crisis - Royal Bank of Scotland shares plunge 39% - Stocks recoup some losses after markets hit by panic selling - Little recovery in ‘schizophrenic’ market - Markets Plunge Despite Hint of Rate Cut - Global Fears of a Recession Grow - Wall St slides despite Fed liquidity plan - The Credit Crisis Hits Russia

It's the talk on the radio and on the corridor. The new Einsteins around here have their own explanations, one suspects a relation between the solar activity and the stock market, somebody else a correlation between songs on the radio and global financial disasters. It's a fun time to work at an institute that has its money invested in stocks.

Since everybody has their own explanation, and nobody including our so called leaders any clue what's going on, I've declared this Save The Global Economy Day, and welcome you to offer your own explanation and solution to the financial crisis.

Here is my solution. Forget what they've told you about economy, that's all way too complicated. In fact, the reason for the whole problem is that it's gotten too complicated for anybody to understand. What is our economical system good for? It distributes money and resources to free capital and connect traders in a virtuous circle of progress. Ideally. In this game, money is nothing but a promise. The problem with the present crisis is that too many promises have been made that can't be kept. The task is now to punish those who have done so in the right way, or everybody will lose faith in the worth of money,which would be a disaster.

What's going on on the stock market now is the attempt of the system to deal with the situation itself, but it doesn't work. So governments are rushing to help, but don't know what to do.

Now keep in mind that only a negligible amount of the money traded is actually used for consume. The vast amount of it is a pushing back and forth of promises, people trying to be smart, people panicking, people losing faith, people trying to save what they think is left. There are records of all these trades.

So here is what to do: Take the attempt to fix the ill-distribution of money out of the hands of those who have caused the problem. Reset the distribution to an earlier state. Decide who to punish and how by re-distributing the financial resources. Problem is, one can only do that on a global level... So better imagine there's no countries, even if that's hard to do.

Your turn!

46 comments:

sciencetourist said...

All the wealth being talked about is excess wealth, yet people all over the world go hungry.

I agree with your conclusions, I just don't see a way forward without being branded 'socialist' or 'liberal' or 'internationalist'. Not that I mind being called any of the above.

Arun said...

Ha, you talk of a global crisis when the great Thomas Friedman says that the world is flat! Maybe misunderstanding the shape of the world is at the root of the crisis?

Bee said...

Gosh, I was hoping I'd wake up in the morning, and somebody had saved the world, but no luck. Where are all the smartasses if one needs them?

Arun, that's an excellent explanation. Of course, if you trade on a flat world as if it was round you throw a lot of money over the rim!

Bee said...

Hi Sciencetourist,

I'd have no problem being branded either, but what I wrote was neither socialist nor liberalist. It's probably just plainly nuts. Feel free to call me internationalist :-) Best,

B.

Andreas said...

If you think you're in trouble, take a look at this graphic showing the exchange rates for the icelandic Krona versus the Euro. Ouch!

cynthia said...

With Halloween just around the corner, I can't think of a better time than now to raise JM Keynes from the dead so that he can, once again, save Capitalism from self-annihilation...

But we oughta have a few counter-terrorists on hand just in case a gang of freaky Friedmanites* with bombs strapped to their chests try to send him back to the dead!

* the Milton, not Thomas, Friedmans of the World

Uncle Al said...

Stupidity and corruption practiced upon a sufficiently large scale earn reply in kind. Ancient Rome reserved crucifixion for those whose crimes endangered Senātus Populusque Rōmānus. Spartacus' revolt lined the 71 BC Appian Way from Rome to Capua, 212 km, with 6000+ rotting corpses.

The Washington, DC Beltway is 103 km in circumference. Halve the spacing.

Bee said...

Hi Uncle,

You're reaching the limits of what I consider tolerable. If you don't want to risk getting your comments deleted, please tone it down. Best,

B.

sciencetourist said...

Hi B;

Internationalist, to me, is a badge of honor. But many of my countrymen don't feel the same way.

Hey Arun;

Thomas Friedman is an idiot. His flat world babble ignored the global disparities of wealth required to make a profit producing screwdrivers in Shenyang and shipping them to Dayton and the energy consumed along the supply chain. He was also way wrong about Iraq and Bush-ism but at least he seems to admit that now.

Giotis said...

Hey! I think i found the solution! Compactify all these mortgage debts into a S5 sphere and through them in the bulk of AdS space. According to my calculations they will be unobservable on the boundary. I'm working the details.

cvjugo said...

I was thinking along similar lines to your 'reset the distribution to an earlier state'. To a certain extent, i think some aspect of the solution can be accomplished by fiat in the same way that Pope Gregory XIII back in 1582 declared that October 15 follows October 4 For example, all Credit Default Swaps (CDS) can be declared null and void so the Financial Institutions don't have to honor their obligations in this area.

Bee said...

Oh yeah! I'd suggest we make that Sep 18 follows Oct 8th, because I just noticed there's a deadline for a job application on Friday. But more seriously, the problem as I see it is presently not that it's bad, but that it's getting worse. As far as I am concerned, these are all virtual transactions, so there is a grace period in which you can (with some restrictions) reset the system to an earlier state. One shouldn't do that unless in emergency, because it erases all mistakes that have been made and all responsibilities for them. But this clearly is an emergency, don't you think?

cvjugo said...

I agree, especially about the 'getting worse' part. In a way, the 'virtual' nature of these transactions' makes the problem easier to solve if only the relevant parties are willing to coordinate. After all, the Financial crisis is not like the Energy crisis where the latter requires real technology to solve. To a certain extent, those concerned are starting to coordinate their actions but these are still lifted from the textbook and it looks like we're beyond textbook solutions. I wish the financial engineers who got us into this crisis will use their smarts to innovate us out of it.

Rae Ann said...

Well, I think someone should just say "hocus-pocus" and just tell everyone that all debt is erased. How could that cause any more problems than what we already have? ;-)

Bee said...

I can easily envision the situation getting even worse, that's when lacking confidence and money impacts at the ground level and millions of people end up unemployed and/or on the street. Just throwing away debt isn't going to do it, as I said above, it's a matter of redistribution that is necessary to reestablish faith. What I called 'resetting the system' is the simplest thing you can do. I doubt anybody really understands what's going on or what works and what doesn't, but we see what's happening. So just do it again and learn from what happened previously. I do the same thing with my work. Sometimes an approach stops making sense and it just get worse and worse. At some point I'll have to realize it can't be fixed, and restart from an earlier point where things still made sense.

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Bee,

As to what’s caused the crisis, I think it’s clear that no matter who it was or which way you slice it, it all boils down to simply bad management, coupled with greed mitigated by an ineffective oversight process.

As to fixing it, since it is primarily only solvable by the nations representing free market economies and that such economies only thrive in an atmosphere of confidence, which at the same time always must live with a element of risk for me then the only conceivable solution is clear.

That is it’s time for the G8 nations when they meet this weekend to borrow a strategy from the no limit poker plays and declare an all in. That would amount to declaring that all of their combined assets and all the reserves are up on the table in this one. If that doesn’t restore confidence, then there is little to be lost while much to be gained, for all that would be changed if it fails is we would have traded a slow death for a quick one. If confidence is required we need to manifest some and if it doesn’t succeed we will be required to build from the ashes regardless. In this respect I agree with you that with a global crisis you need a global solution. This could also mark the first step to the required inevitable move towards globalism.

Best,

Phil

chimpanzee said...

I liken the stock-market like a big bloated software program (like Microsoft Word). Instead of a re-write (like you're saying), they're doing a hodge-podge of band-aid fixes (short-term turnaround). It only delays the inevitable: Big Crash.

"Kludge upon kludge"
-- xx, grad-school researcher friend
[ when I asked him about a fix for the robotics control program ]

I was in grad-school (25 yrs ago), & 1 of my officemates commented on how the stock market was "legalized gambling". It's all based on Perception (rather than Reality), as 1 of my ex-HS classmates recently told me (who teaches HS History & Economics). Stock Market is this one giant "grey fuzzball of Smoke & Mirrors". P. Woit on NEW commented recently, that he couldn't figure out where this $$ was coming from. Man, it was all vapor-ware based on Perception (hype & buzz)..stock-value on paper. I call it Stupid Money, an illegitimate way to "make money". Another way to look at it is some giant Poker game, where EVERYONE is bluffing a good hand. All of a sudden, BOOM..everyone at the table realizes the truth: total collapse of the game. Nobody has any "credit".

"You can't fix STUPID"

And, they went & bailed out the con-men?? They just revealed that AIG execs took a page out of "Bohemian Lifestyle" 1 week after the bailout ($400K splurge). STUPID! This is exactly what the 700 Billion bailout will do: continuation of self-destructive modus-operanda. "Throwing Good Money..after BAD", thereby ensuring a BIGGER CRASH in the future. Great.

Just about everyone involved in Stock Market has some shenanigans going on. Insider trading: it caught Steve Jobs/Apple, Martha Stewart (& her Biotech friend), et al. Everyone is "playing the game", a corrupt one that is.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/...ap5486058.html

pmwestx wrote:

"This failure is a wake up call for the entire auto industry. The Heard Organization has weathered every other economic storm in the last 90 years?.except this one. Looking back, the auto industry went in to panic mode during 9/11. The response to the fear of an industry meltdown was the introduction of 0% financing and huge rebates. For Chevrolet, this response yielded record sales in October of 2001. The plan worked, and for the next six years, the programs became more aggressive which forced sales, in an otherwise flat market. The increase in sales created a boost in the sub-prime lending sector, and the entire retail automotive industry was operating in a "fabricated market". Not unlike the mortgage industry.

The bubble burst 18 months ago. When combined with rising fuel cost, the tightening of financing and the effect inflation injected into the cocktail, the Heard's fell fast and hard.

A few controllable factors, which the Heard's ignored, could have averted their demise.

Thirteen of their retail stores where Chevrolet, with one Cadillac and one Saab store. It may have hurt them to have had all of their eggs in one basket.

[ lack of Diversification in their business-model ]

The expense structure of the stores was geared for the delivery of four times the volume they produced over the past 4 years.

They waited to long to adjust their business model to the reality of the market.

2,700 people lost there jobs, and there filing suggests 266 million in debt. For a company that produced 2.1 billion in revenue in 2007, their decline and failure was a 13 month process. "Hope" doesn't work, reality, cost control and adjustemnt could have prevented their failure."

A succession of "bubble bursts", leading to a successively bigger one in the future. An Inflationary Model of big-bangs in the xxx industry (automotive, mortgage, etc). Possibly, this is a parallel model for the inflationary universe?

Plato said...

Phil said:....if it fails is we would have traded a slow death for a quick one. If confidence is required we need to manifest some and if it doesn’t succeed we will be required to build from the ashes regardless

In my opinion it would have been better to suffer the quick death then to give opportunities for the shock syndrome to incubate(a bailout) and an economic realization of what that change shall bring?:)Now we don't have to wait for the economic realization. One can reflect(go back in time) on the "scurry to implement," while today, people are still scratching their heads.

What is not in doubt is that sudden changes to economic structure and incentives require changes to behaviour, financial flows and the structure of the economy that are not as rapid as the shocks that initiate them. It takes time for firms to be formed and built up; it takes time for human capital to change (to acquire the skills) to exploit new circumstances. Critics say that a developed Western economy rests upon and tends to take for granted a framework of law, regulation and established practice (including between parts of the domestic and international economy) that cannot be instantaneously created in a society that was formerly authoritarian, heavily centralised and subject to state ownership of assets. Even re-defining property law and rights takes time.Shock Syndrome(Economic)

Lets see the growing pains with the bail out then( It's October 4th)?:)

You were right to point out oversight being absent. These trends were already evident in a flurry like the dot com event.

It goes on......

According to dot-com theory, an Internet company's survival depended on expanding its customer base as rapidly as possible, even if it produced large annual losses



IN any depressed state there will be those who will have "the money" and gobble up the left overs. It's no different now. Change can come by administering shock therapy but it also comes to you in other subtle ways while you are sleeping. Ways unaware if you are not tuned to the "methods of change."

To "loose independence" is to loose one's country?:) If one did not plan to provide for the tuff times, then we would have to face the outcome in a less then hopeful way. But then, that becomes a lesson. My lesson, and a lesson for many others.

Because one might like to envision the Global economy, it in one respect does not mean that a different kind of plan that extends to individual of different countries can overtake and form a more citizen related agenda "in concern" of the countries populations and their economic future. Dictating a "responsible economic future" then.

This can happen any day too. Lets say it happened on Save the Global Economy day.

Best,

Plato said...

What a "little experiential fear" can do? The same mistakes?

The actions of yesterday(the Great depression) are reflected on what the Federal Reserve did in that bailout, "today."

Lessons of the past, will reveal new and better outcomes? This did not take place in those events leading up to the great Depression so the economists thought, "why not do it this time to stop it?"

One does not loose on the "miniature experiences" that are created in the space of today, to realize that most of us have not seen the likes of these snippets.

These little "privy views" to the availability of money, forces one to realize, what, and how, they shall have lived then...um... I mean today?:)

Best,

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

I think you understand the method of my suggested cure as you describe it as shock treatment and yet you seem to deny the disease it’s prescribed for. That disease is paranoia which is responsible for this overreaction. This paranoia has in turn destroyed trust, which is demonstrated in the decrease in liquidity with decreased capital transfer between banks and among nations. Sure there was an actual initial loss but now you are seeing it being magnified exponentially by unjustifiable irrational fear.

I submit it is the symptoms of this disease that has been evident for years that hasn’t been addressed which actually is at the root of more then this one problem yet extends to including many of our diseases and even wars. I say lets recognize the patient’s disease and treat it accordingly. My proposal is just the first step to a much longer process. The next one will be to have us all rid ourselves of the denial in being so inflicted before there can be any hope for a true and long term cure.

Best,

Phil

Plato said...

Hi Phil,

I think you understand the method of my suggested cure as you describe it as shock treatment and yet you seem to deny the disease it’s prescribed for

I was being specific to actions in defence of the outcome as they already happened.

Monetarists, including Milton Friedman and current Federal Reserve System chairman Ben Bernanke, argue that the Great Depression was caused by monetary contraction, the consequence of poor policymaking by the American Federal Reserve System and continuous crisis in the banking system See: The Great Depression

So it is in the "character of the nation" then that a leavening of sorts is playing out?

That one might discern this in it's character as "how aggressive" it was, or, "how maternal" this nation gathers it's little ones for a "lesson and a correction" bemoans....a cry for a independence again. Home, food, shelter, first, then, an expansion of trade between neighbours.

How this trickles down is a growth within the country of productivity and innovation, while conducive to those things that create a "secure home environment," and a "recognition of sustainability", as roots causes of a new and more moderate economy.

Best,

Plato said...

Some explanation on the character of the nation.

One always tries to "seek balance" in the family?:) If one did not see it's evolution in contrast of that reflection to a more wholesome child, then how would one know of this "illusive factor" to what is being "mathematically descriptive" of the experience at large?

Best,

Neil' said...

Bee, no need to be overly bashful here: I have been very impressed with the wisdom you have put into many little pieces in this blog, including this one. They often go beyond pure science to the ways of the world - you remind me of CP Snow and the like. I suggest you put together an article elaborating on what you think and how scientists in general can perhaps pitch in ideas (based on their overall approach and sense of the world) on how to pick the world back on its feet as it were. You preach a form of populism that may work, but without details "it's just a bumper sticker."

The DJIA fell again today, along with markets all around the world - we are in truly dangerous and challenging times. Now thoughtful "public intellectuals" must come forth to offer suggestions to our societies. Carl Sagan would be talking about it now were he still with us, but it seems there aren't any more visible citizen scientists like him around (am I missing someone?) You and others can fill his shoes, we sure need someone to try.

Bee said...

Hi Neil,

Thanks for your encouraging words. The details are here, I just need $150 Mio and 100 people. Best,

B.

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

“.a cry for a independence again. Home, food, shelter, first, then, an expansion of trade between neighbours.”

It’s sad to find that someone who considers themselves as enlightened to be reacting in a manner that is so insular. If one thinks that any nation can steer its own course through this situation as to ignore its economy being dependent on others has gone even further by extending their paranoia to delusion. This situation for me demonstrates that globalism cannot be avoided, yet rather has been with us for some time. The denial of its existence and necessity can only serve to compound the problem at a time when clear thinking is required in terms of action.

Best,

Phil

John G said...

From here

BREAKING UNITED STATES NEWS

What was discussed at a closed session of the U.S. House of Representatives?

Tuesday March 25, 2008 7:37pm EST

BRISBANE, Australia - The House has held a closed session for the first time in 25 years and apparently discussed a hotly contested surveillance bill.

Republicans had requested privacy for what they termed "an honest debate" on the new Democratic eavesdropping measure.

Conspiracy theorists around the world have filled many pages of blogs and emails with theories as to why the public was prevented to hear what their elected representatives said and heard.

That is the nature of secrets: those "kept in the dark" want to know and in the absence of knowledge, seek answers.

Writers suggested that the special closed session of the U.S. House of Representatives discussed a lot more than the pending security surveillance provisions.

Last week's session was only the fourth time in 176 years that Congress has closed it's doors to the public.

Word has begun leaking from last weeks special, closed-door session of the United States House of Representatives.

Theorists wrote "Not only did members discuss new surveillance provisions as was the publicly stated reason for the closed door session, they also discussed: The imminent collapse of the U.S. economy to occur by September 2008, the imminent collapse of US federal government finances by February 2009, the possibility of Civil War inside the USA as a result of the collapse and advance round-ups of "insurgent U.S. citizens" likely to move against the government.

Also theorised was the detention of those rounded-up at "REX 84" camps constructed throughout the USA and the possibility of retaliation against members of Congress for the collapses and the location of "safe facilities" for members of Congress and their families to reside during expected massive civil unrest

Other answers included "the necessary and unavoidable merger of the United States with Canada" (for its natural resources) and with Mexico (for its cheap labor pool), the issuance of a new currency - THE AMERO - for all three nations as the proposed solution to the coming economic armageddon.

Members of Congress were FORBIDDEN to reveal what was discussed and ABC News via WCPO web site at the link below CONFIRMS congress members were FORBIDDEN to talk about it!

Several are so furious and concerned about the future of the country, they have begun leaking info. More details coming later today and over the weekend.

That is the problem with secrets and inadequate explanations for their necessity, imaginations run wild.

Anonymous said...

I respond to both of you tonight.

Best

Plato said...

Sorry Phil I just lost an hours worth of work in response to your comment as well as to John G.

It's late for me now as the very early morning hours are calling. I thought by definition there might be a problem?

Try and look up Independence here. Paying special attention to the word, "Hegemony."

Hope this begins to clear up some of your confusion:)I am not delusional, insular, or believe in conspiracy theories in regards to this situation.

Best,

Phil Warnell said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

If somehow you can imagine that to offer up two words unexplained in their context as serving as rebuttal being all that’s required, I’m afraid it’s not. To steer ones own course in this situation no matter how considered equates to be the same reaction expressed in the markets this week, being everyone for themselves.

This strategy is only effective and incorporated often by the simplest of life forms, whereas with collectives it is their common and mutual action that is the key not only to their success yet ultimately their survival. Then of course you may have a point, for I’ve observed ants respond much better in moments of threat then the members of our genus did in Wall St. and the other similar assorted colonies around the world this past week. I guess it is then somewhat fair to question if any of us are worthy of saving?

Best,

Phil

Anonymous said...

Hi Phil,

I need no defence.

Not since the 1930s have U.S. taxpayers taken equity stakes to salvage financial institutions teetering on the brink of ruin and threatening to wreak havoc on the broader economy" Globe and Mail

You have to pay attention and be able to discern when one is actually analyzing what is happening. It's historical relation and the adjusments for today. Under stand why Paulson and Bernanke did what they did.

I looked "long range," not just of the moment. Recognizied the disparity that will evolve under these conditions. No conspiracy theory.

Best,

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Anonymous,

Are you questioning if I follow events and understand them or do you question my recommended solution or reason for its depth. I suggest you read all of what I’ve said to realize that conspiracy never plays into it, simply individual and collective paranoia which causes reactions to be far, far greater then what’s actually warranted. It seems that as I write this the G7 is taking actions as I predicted. Now we will see how deep and unwarranted it is as I’m confident the money will flow again leaving the only question being are the majority like you which appears to be so afflicted that they will refuse to spend. I would admit then that nothing or no one can remedy this in such an event. It has been often reminded misery enjoys company, yet I hope you will forgive me if I don’t care to join you.

Best,


Phil

Plato said...

Hi Phil,

Again, anon was me. I was commenting under an intranet.

Yes, you did say this below.

That is it’s time for the G8 nations when they meet this weekend to borrow a strategy from the no limit poker plays and declare an all in. That would amount to declaring that all of their combined assets and all the reserves are up on the table in this one.

Disaster Capitalism at work? A lot of reforms taking place. Who benefited from the bailout? That luckily(?) the bailout underwent a revision?

It does sound like Paulson and Bernanke were flying off the seat of their pants doesn't it:)

Okay, the bail out didn't do it, so plan B?

But yes indeed, there was a plan and they enacted according to what was "not done" before. So was that tidbit to imply anything?

It could have been thought as, "in sighting paranoia and fear," and you would have been far from the truth.

Any "reflection here" was to coincide with the content of this post, and the way in which "reflection had to incorporate reform" based on what happened before, and was enacted upon accordingly in our now.

So you now find a "sequence of events" following a format that while seemingly flying off the seat of one's pants, was taken from a skit, already written. Are they still shooting in the dark?

That illustration was used to discern something that you have to join?

No, I am always referring to the disparity between those who have money, and those who do not. That group is growing. You could naturally belong, without joining.

I have an example of this in Canada under Heathcare that I will not like to share at this time while the country of the US is undergoing a election process.

How did we get here?

There is a story about the "fat cats" that you might know?:)This is not to imply you are a "fat cat," but to encourage a "historical look" at that statement.

Time to move on.

Best,

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

“Time to move on.”

Agreed, and so as not to rehash all again, I would simply like to end it saying that I recognize your desire to discern groups and create divisions as to be what betrays your thinking. Your intent, even if unrecognized, is focused primarily on laying blame, rather then finding or recognizing needed and useful solutions, as to confuse the utility of one with the other. All I ask then is when you celebrate Thanksgiving tomorrow is to remember that the bounty we give thanks for and celebrate is from a harvest that is the product of many if not indeed all.

Best,

Phil

Anonymous said...

Hi,

Can I help you refuse to acknowledge the cyclical nature of things? My gold is not the gold of profit, but the seeking of wisdom

Not to lay blame, far from it.Like any harmonic oscillation, where does it settle? Resistance and watchdogs are there for a reason, and if it goes to far one way, it comes back the other. Balance of, and in itself is built in without my saying?

How did we get here?

Best,

Giotis said...

Aha! Another symptom of the crisis. Karl Marx is rediscovered in Germany.
Bee maybe you'll find a different country when you'll return.

Proletariat of the World, Unite:-)

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Giotis,

“ha! Another symptom of the crisis. Karl Marx is rediscovered in Germany.
Bee maybe you'll find a different country when you'll return.”

I don’t think Bee has much to worry about for I’m sure most German’s will realize that even their country is not advanced enough for such a scheme to work as of yet. Perhaps another millennium or so and it might stand a chance.

Best,

Phil

Giotis said...

Hi Phil,

Yeah, but nevertheless it would be fun to see Bee working together with the rest of her physics comrades in a people's institute for science under the supervision of the local commissar:-)

BR

Bee said...

Hi Giotis, Phil,

I'm not a Marxist. In fact, I'd think that the whole problem that we have is based on the fact that we pay too much attention to materialism, to who owns what, 'exploits' whom and influences what. In the long run, any political ideology will have to overcome that, otherwise we will never be able to pay attention to exactly the non-materialistic factors that influence our lives. And these I think are, believe it or not, the actual origin of the crisis. Besides this, I have no problem with private property. What I'd actually want to see in the first line is that people have more awareness about the system that they live in and think about it. This seems to work better in Germany than in the USA - blame that on the poets and thinkers or whatever - but its insufficient in either case. Anyway, as far as I am concerned we're basically trying to find a good way to exploit each other, and the free market has in this regard proved to be quite useful, I think Marx saw that a bit too atomistic instead of systemic.

Best,

B.

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Bee,

“I think Marx saw that a bit too atomistic instead of systemic.”

You are of course right for Marx's whole program was motivated by and promoted out of a fear that the rise in automated production would eliminate many of the jobs people had, which in effect has to a great extent taken place. However, he never imagined large parts of economies being service and information based which provide jobs for many of the people he thought would be disenfranchised through automation.

I would however still contend that the importance of cooperation and interdependence has fallen with the expansion of free market ideology as I have mentioned earlier. As an example, quite often when people are convicted of lesser crimes they are made to render community service as part of their sentence. This has always made me wonder how this has many perceive such service; that is it something that we are trying to promote or rather discourages, for is it taken as correction or as punishment and thus in effect something we should then avoid in having to do.

Best,

Phil

Plato said...

Update:Friedman under attack

One might think I am creating divisions, but on the contrary. Go ahead call me a socialist(more Republican diatribe? it's sickening really:) who recognizes the "democracy index" as starting point to a truer one world government? Not the one of Jean Monnet or Robert Pastor.

Phil Warnell said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

You seem to imagine that one or any current political doctrine/economic plan can capture what the world will require as we move forward. I think its plain that with the collapse of the U.S.S.R. on one hand, contrasted with China not only remaining strong yet flourishing serves as counterpoint to what has happened in what many describe as the free world. This folly in oversimplification is also mentioned in Freidman’s defense within the article you cite.

The thing is that none of this is relevant in respect to the attitudes I held issue with that you voiced earlier. What I said is that it is evident with the crisis that globalism is already undeniably and irrevocably upon us and that isolationist policies would only serve to exacerbate the problem rather then solve it. I then find nothing here that serves to address this as such to alter my opinion.

Best,

Phil

Plato said...

Phil:You seem to imagine that one or any current political doctrine/economic plan can capture what the world will require as we move forward.

The thing is, that on the economic front (removal of borders) I seek to encourage that it citizens are are taken care of under that one world order( removal of economic borders) that is being sought for.

In terms of negotiation, the for profit schemes and the zeal sought under such exuberance, should be thought better of, while I am seeking to ensure that the democratic plights of people are not ignored. I pointed off one example in Canada, while I also pointed out how old school tactics are implored under the disaster scenarios of the recovery of the economies. Bernanke and Paulson did what they did under the "old school of economic thought."

What was pointed out is the idea that an institution revolted against the very notion of politics under this Friedman method, while describing for you the way in which this ole school of thought reacted to dealing with the economic crisis. You called it encouraging fear and ignorance. I did take it to heart, and did take stock:)

Yes, I move on with this agenda regardless of your opinion of me.:)

I suspect you are either editing your comment or you thought better of it?

Best,

Phil Warnell said...

Hi Plato,

I would be the first to admit that what you or I have to say on any of this is not worth much. The fact is that in such circunstance it has more to do with what people believe rather then what they know. In observing the recent (re)actions of the banks and markets it’s becoming clear that most think more as you do then I. It is this consensus then that will form to be both the truth and the consequence for the immediate future. For me it’s coming down to the old adage that one can lead a horse to water yet you can’t make him drink. It appears the horses have decided that they will thirst no matter how much water is made available or assured in future. The shame of course is many that have no thoughts or ability to effect change either way will then suffer the same.

Best,

Phil

Plato said...

Phil:The shame of course is many that have no thoughts or ability to effect change either way will then suffer the same.

If one does "not participate" and follow their convictions, most certainly. If one follows their convictions and and events fall as they may, most certainly.

Shall I call you a capitalist or myself a socialist while what is apparent "is a conviction," without wanting of any category is a fault in science as well, as to point people and allocating "directions" because so and so believed?

No rather do science then be castigated to a current myth.:) "But aware" of this internal struggle is manifested in society is equally a valid as it is inside of us.

Who said people cannot be affected by the weather?:)See, Bee's showing symptoms already and it is not winter yet.:)

Best,